58gal New Tank Build!!

[skeety]

The other thing I try to stress is that there's this misconception (IMO) in the hobby...that cycling is about Ammonia->nitrites->nitrates...and that's it.

From what I've learned, there is WAY more to the cycle. It's not just the nitrogen cycle...its all KINDS of critters fighting for their lives. Populations growing and dying off. I go into this concept in more detail here (2nd half of my post):

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/sh...0&postcount=52

but the point is...the MORE of a biological equilibrium (beyond the nitrogen cycle) your tank reaches prior to adding critters...the greater success I think you'll have.

[motorslave]

Just go buy some extra rolls of duct tape and wrap your hands for at least a couple of months! Your eventual critters and your wallet will thank you!

R

[UkrainianReefJunky]

All the LR I've added isn't bad is it. They told me the rock can cure in the tank.

As for additives, I know what they do, most are not needed now but my buddy said you can add them awhile. They came in a reef starter kit??? I'm just going with what I know.

As for the Damsels they're suppose to be helping cycle (I thought) why will I not like them?

So none of all these replies really helped me?!?!?!? I don't know what I'm suppose to do. Ok so I'll stop the additives....stop adding things to the tank.....but will it be okay. So I should just sit and wait??

[skeety]

sit and wait. hehehe I know it sucks...but it'll be worth it.

as for Damsels...they MEAN guys....and if you add them to start the cycle...they'll beat up on everyone you ever add after that. And in an effort to get the guy out (which you WILL want to do)..you'll end up taking everything out of the tank. HUGE PIA, IMO.

[UkrainianReefJunky]

The things I've added aren't hurting the cycling right?

I'm not thinking of adding anything else anyway. I just wanted to know why I'm getting the results I'm getting for my water tests?

I figured it wasn't done cycling, I'm just asking for some more input....

I'm losing a gallon a day to evap, so how often should I be doing water changes. My buddy said small amounts every week and some say 10%every 2 weeks.....

[UkrainianReefJunky]

Why will I take everything out to get him, cause they're hard to catch?

[UkrainianReefJunky]

Also if cycling isn't just ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate...then what I'm I looking for. How do I know its cycled?????

[BGJ223]

I also agree that the best thing to do is wait. I am a month into cycling my tank, and the only thing that I have added to it is a few crabs and snails. I probably will not add anything to my tank for about another month. It does kind of suck to just sit and wait, but this is the best time to plan what you want to put in the tank. Figure out what fish you want, what coral, inverts, everything.
For the Damsels, they can be hit or miss. I used 2 damsels to cycle my 20 gal tank, I was able to remove one. The other one I left in there with a clown that I later purchased. They got along fine, but I think that is only because the damsel that I kept was the "punk" of the pair that I purchased.

Not that this helps you right now, but I purchased my live rock from http://www.tbsaltwater.com and the amount of life that comes on the rocks keeps me from adding to the tank. I just want to see what grows first.

[skeety]

Originally Posted by UkrainianReefJunky

The things I've added aren't hurting the cycling right?

That depends. First...on what your adding. Next...on what the levels of those things were...and what they are now.

The key is...whatever you're dosing...you need to be able to test for. Some people claim that by dosing Iodine, their corals color up more, or their fish seem happier, etc. But w/out knowing what the iodine levels are...I seriously doubt it has anything to do with their dosing. A little too little iodine CAN mean you're tanks not as happy as it could be. But too much iodine can mean disaster for your aquarium. High levels can be toxic to some critters, which would then kick off a chain of events that's VERY hard to diagnose.

Same with ANY additives. We ALL check our salinity...and measure the sg of any new water we're changing, right? And those of us with Ca reactors test Ca and Alk frequently. WHY would you add anything else to your tank that you're not testing for?

This early on, with the little dosing that you did...more than likely hasn't caused any harm. But continuing to do so, without testing for whatever you're adding, can cause serious problems. just my 2 cents

Originally Posted by UkrainianReefJunky

I'm not thinking of adding anything else anyway. I just wanted to know why I'm getting the results I'm getting for my water tests?

To determine what those results mean...you need some results prior to that testing..and after. The nitrogen cycle isn't complete just because ammonia and nitrite levels are undetectable. It's complete when ammonia went up...then as it started coming down...nitrites went up...then as those started coming down, nitrates when up...then eventually came down.

Point being...you need a series of tests to determine where in that cycle you are. Newbies do those tests the whole time...and it's good practice. But after setting up your next tank, more than likely, you won't bother. You'll just wait a month or two, THEN test. If ANYTHING reads..you'll wait a few more weeks. But early on in the hobby...we're all excited...and anxious. It's neat...exciting...interesting...and somewhat frustrating too! hahah

Originally Posted by UkrainianReefJunky

I'm losing a gallon a day to evap, so how often should I be doing water changes. My buddy said small amounts every week and some say 10%every 2 weeks.....

When water evaporates...(for the most part) ALL that leaves that tank is water. No salt. So to make up for evaporated water...you should be adding just plain water (preferably RO/DI water). The more FREQUENT you make up the difference, the happier your critters will be. If you wait a week, and add 7 gallons of water...that will create a very significant swing in Salinity (bringing it back to where it was...but very QUICKLY).

Some people make it a daily habit to make up the evaporated water. Some add automatic top off devices that add the water all day, in small quantities. I personally set up a drip that drips in about 1-2 drops per second...to make up for that amount evaporating.

It all depends on the time you have...and the critters your keeping. Some corals (i.e. SPS's) do best when all parameters are constant...stable as can be. So adding top off water once a day wouldn't be ideal. You'd need the top-off device or drip to have a constant replenishment. But some corals are very tolerant...and topping off before you go to bed can work.

I hope that helped some.

[skeety]

Originally Posted by UkrainianReefJunky

Why will I take everything out to get him, cause they're hard to catch?

BINGO!

And that's putting it midly.

Even after I had ALL my rock/deco out of the tank...dropped the water half way...it still took me almost a half hour to catch the little @$@%%!!

I'm sure many others here have similar stories.

Those guys are mean....food hogs....and VERY quick.

Granted..some are beautiful. But as you search some you'll find there are many other fish equally, if not more, beautiful...and much nicer to have.

[skeety]

Originally Posted by UkrainianReefJunky

Also if cycling isn't just ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate...then what I'm I looking for. How do I know its cycled?????

so my fault...I wasn't clear.

The nitrogen cycle (ammonia-'trites-'trates) is simply a cycle that tells you when you CAN add fish.

I was saying there's a difference between when you can add fish, and when you should (to maximize success).

to elaborate...the nitrogen cycle is the result of a bunch of various types of bacteria populating, dieing off, re-populating, and finally stabalizing.

But while that's happening...other critters are doing the same. Pods, zooplankton, photoplankton, tiny tube worms, peanut worms, turnicates/sponges, spit worms, all kinds of critters you can't even see.

When you here the term "Mature tank", that usually means that the tank has been up long enough (and without catasrophes) that the majority of all these critters have reached an equilibrium. Meaning theres a balance between the number of each critter, and the amount of nutrients/food needed for that population.

this "mature tank" time varries...but on average, I'd say it's 8 months to a year.

That does NOT mean you have to wait that long to start stocking the tank. But...the longer you wait, the less growing/dying off there is that's going on. Some critters are more sensitive to these changes than others. But allowing a tank to run for 2-3 months before stocking the tank is a nice safe bet. The tank still probably hasn't reached a complete equilibrium...but a significant number of critters will have. And IMO, THIS increases your success rate a LOT.

But technically speaking...you can start adding fish as soon as the nitrogen cycle is complete. But sometimes, this takes a month or more, other times, there is almost NO cycle. It's those later cases that concern me. Okay..so that means the tank isn't poisonous to your new fish. But what about the algae? The pods? all that stuff the fish may feed on while you're at work? What about the feather worms who were already in your rock and due to a lack of nutrients start dying off...creating mini-cycles you can't really detect? All of these things STRESS your new fish. And while they don't kill him...they weaken it's immune system (as does stress on ANY creature). Now...suddenly your new fish has Ick. And you dont' know how he got it. All the while, things that ate that fishes poop started to populate. But since your fish has Ick...you pull him out of your tank, and put him in a QT tank to treat him. Meanwhile, those fish-poop eating whatevers start dying...cause there's no fish anymore. Your fish, in the QT tank gets better, so you add him back to your dispay. ANd the whole thing repeats, and you sit there confused as to how your fish, who had Ick and got better, now has Ick again.

My whole point is, dispite ALL the info we DO have in this hobby...I'd bet it amounts to maybe 2% of the overall picture. We do our best to deduce and figure out problems based on what we do know. But there's an AWFUL lot going on behind the scenes that we can't possibly know about.

wow...I'm rambling. Sorry.

My point is...waiting a few months will increase your chances of sucess.

that was my whole point.

[Geoff]

generally after the ammoniea-nitrite-nitrate cycle you will have a silica cycle (diatom algae bloom), then depending on your maintenance during this time a cyano bloom with a bit of algae bloom along for the ride. each of these blooms are using up different components. if you jump on these to soon and try and fix them with massive herbivorous influx, you will than cause a massive die off of these critters when the foodstuff has been exhausted.

G~

[BGJ223]

Originally Posted by Geoff

if you jump on these to soon and try and fix them with massive herbivorous influx, you will than cause a massive die off of these critters when the foodstuff has been exhausted.

G~

Made that mistake with my 20 gallon. Don't you just love the learning curve with reef tanks?

[crvz]

Great set up so far (though i may be a little partial)! I've had my 58 gallon for about 5 years and really like it (even though its been trying to cause trouble, you can read a little of it here). Reading back a few pages, i have a similar RO system and was looking into adding a DI. The guy i bought my RO from sells a DI upgrade(www.purewaterplanet.com), and i imagine it would be easy to fit in place.

[UkrainianReefJunky]

Originally Posted by skeety

...you should be adding just plain water (preferably RO/DI water).

I'm making an auto top off and I only use RO water.