Head and Lateral Line Erosion

[csb123]

Help! About 4 months ago my Kole Tang started to have HLLE which has now progressed to look pretty nasty. It feeds well and has not lost weight. For the last 3 months I've supplemented Selcon (1 dropperful), Garlic Extreme 2 drops, and Vitachem 1 squirt to it's frozen food (brine shrimp/marine cuisine/emerald entree/mysis shrimp). Now my Royal Gramma has traces of it. The Clown fish and Mandarin look fine. The reef is otherwise thriving.

The 4 year old reef is 75 gal with a 30 gal DSB refugium. Water parameters are ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0, pH 8.15, dKH 10, Ca 360, ORP 400.

Does anyone have any suggestions?
Has anyone seen this condition reverse?

Thanks!

[smeese]

You should see underwater world. All the tangs had it there. Hundreds!

[Mr.Reef]

Offer you kole tang macro algae. It will help with its immune system.

[Loverotties]

Mine reversed by grounding my tank and feeding seaweed.Alot of times the lateral line is from stray voltage and/or vitamine deficentie(spelling?)lack of enough vitamines.

[redwinger]

There is no scientific proof that stry voltage will cause HLLE. There was a article on it a while ago. The main thing is to start feeding it some macro/nori as a main source of vitamins. Also soak the food in selcon as others have suggested.

[redwinger]

Cut and paste from the article.
Stray Voltage and Ground Probes:

Of all the theories regarding MHLLE, this is the one that I have the most trouble believing, and, after subsequent readings by David Kessner, it would appear my gut impression turns out to be correct. The phenomenon that we aquarists refer to as stray voltage is actually capacitive coupling; the so-called cure of using a grounding probe actually causes the effect to occur. The abbreviated description of this occurrence is that any electrical device in an aquarium, be that of a heater, pump, etc., acts as a resistor. These are sealed in plastic, glass, or some other nonconductive material, in electrical terms - an insulator. Once the aquarist places a ground probe in the water, another resistor is created by completing the circuit and turning the water into a second resistor. Two resistors separated by an insulator is capacitive coupling and this allows electrons to flow out of the tank through the ground probe. The point being, without the ground probe, the circuit is not completed and no charges flow. Hence, the "cure" for stray voltage and its impact on MHLLE by the use of a ground probe is what causes the stray voltage in the first place. Without the ground probe, there is no stray voltage.

Now, I am neither an electrical engineer nor some Radio Shack technology buff. I am a fish geek. I apologize if my laymen's explanation bothers some. If you are interested in reading more, please make use of my listed references and delve into the discussion on capacitive coupling, resistors, insulators, induction and other things that aren't particularly interesting to me. Otherwise, if you are like me, feel free to skip to the next topic with the knowledge that stray voltage is nothing to worry about with regard to your fishes' well-being.

While I may be making light of stray voltage and grounding probes, I do not mean to discourage their use in general. I am specifically referring to them only in the confines of a discussion on MHLLE. Ground probes and GFI outlets should be used in all aquariums, but not for the health of the fish. They are for the fishkeeper's protection. Electrocution is a distinct possibility, and a ground probe along with a GFI outlet could save your life one day, so use them.


And a good article on stray voltages.
http://article.dphnet.com/cat-02/strayvoltages.shtml

[Fahz]

Some touched on this at IMAC and said it is diet related.

Fahz

[Frogbone]

great article Jon !!

[Loverotties]

Well yrs ago(many) there was a mag. call Marine Fish Monthly and a guy I think it was Charles Debeck did a study with like 50 yellow tangs in two tanks and one had stray voltage and one was grounded.After a month you could see a big difference.When it was over 3 months and really bad he grounded the other tank and with in 6 months they started getting better.
Over 10 yrs ago had a Purple tang that was skitches and a tomato and a powder blue that would hide on one side of the tank untill I turned all the power (except lights) to feed and would go right back after power was back on.I checked the tank and there was a lot of stray voltage.I gounded the tank,and everyone swam peacefully all over the tank and I checked the tank and mulimeter read 0.and the purple tang face got better!

[redwinger]

Rotties you did not get rid of the stray voltage by adding the ground probe. It appears that you did because you are measuring it with a multimeter against a zero Ohm resistor.(the probe). Incidently there is allways stray voltage in your tank and allways will be. I suggest you read the link I posted again. The facts are clearly spelled out. IMO it is impossible for HLLE to be caused by stray voltage. If this is were the case then every thing would be susceptible to it. Ground probes save your life, they do not help with HLLE. I would really like to see that article that Debeek did and see what other factors were involved(ie 25 tangs to a tank must have been two extremelly large tanks!), as Fahz said it is widely becoming fact that HLLE is caused by diet related issues.

[csb123]

Thanks for the input!

As it turns out, I do have the tank grounded for the last 2 years, and the fish gets a piece of nori daily (it get nibbled on throughout the day.)

I guess I'll keep plugging away with the Selcon and vitamins and maybe try some different varieties of seaweed.

[redlion4]

I understand the article, and the conclusions regarding the circuit is correct. Without a ground probe or a multimeter, no current can flow. Putting the probe or meter in the tank and connecting it to ground closes the circuit, allowing the flow of electrons. So in this sense, the article is right. No probe/meter = no current flow. Notice however that this only applies to the current flow itself, and not to voltage.

The point being missed is that without the connection there, the tank itself has "stored energy", i.e. its potential (voltage) is greater than zero. The higher the potential, the more energy is "stored" in the tank. Think of it like lifting a case of beer (good analogy here, right?). The higher one lifts the case, the more energy is stored in it and the more likely all the bottles will break if the case is dropped. One or two inches is no big deal, but one or two feet might cause trouble with that fine case of beer!

So, the question becomes which is worse (or better)? The current that occurs by closing the circuit and forcing the tank potential to ground OR leaving the tank at a potential greater than zero. One must choose between these two states - stored energy, or current flow to remove the stored energy.

I'm degreed in engineering and not marine biology, so I cannot truely answer the question, especially related to HLLE. My personal past experience with the ground probe and HLLE is that although a non-grounded tank may not be the primary cause, I believe it is a contributing factor. The stress induced by the stored energy (imbalance of electrons) could well be worse on the fish immune system than the current produced by forcing the electrons to be balanced with a ground source. Comparing it to the ocean, certainly there is no imbalance of electrons within it. We create that imbalance in our aquarium by using our electronic devices in a limited volume of salt water.

My two cents anyway
Ryan.

[jules77]

Are you running Carbon consistently? There have been a lot of people who believe Carbon can be a contributing factor in HLLE. Mine started to get a little and I decided to stop running carbon and they started getting better...
I also added a ground probe and started feeding more frequently Macros and Nori around the same time. So I woudl suggest a combination of tactics to solve this one. Might I ask what size tank you have?

[redwinger]

Originally Posted by csb123

As it turns out, I do have the tank grounded for the last 2 years,

I would just keep up with Nori/macro algae loaded with vitamins.

[thegrimreefer]

Originally Posted by redlion4

The point being missed is that without the connection there, the tank itself has "stored energy", i.e. its potential (voltage) is greater than zero. The higher the potential, the more energy is "stored" in the tank. Think of it like lifting a case of beer (good analogy here, right?). The higher one lifts the case, the more energy is stored in it and the more likely all the bottles will break if the case is dropped. One or two inches is no big deal, but one or two feet might cause trouble with that fine case of beer!

So, the question becomes which is worse (or better)? The current that occurs by closing the circuit and forcing the tank potential to ground OR leaving the tank at a potential greater than zero. One must choose between these two states - stored energy, or current flow to remove the stored energy.

I just know this is going to turn into a rambling response...

Ryan,
I understand your point, but I can't see how it could manifest itself.
Let's assume a degenerate case: By some means, my aquarium attains an electrical charge (voltage) 10,000,000 volts higher than, say, ground. Note that "ground" is an arbitrary, though common, reference

Without a grounding rod, and unfortunate aquarist, or something else to bleed off the charge, the stored energy remains. That's your point, I think.

This charged tank might be a huge liability to ME, but it'll have no effect on the fish.
All that can be detected is a DIFFERENCE in charge. To affect my fish, there must be a different charge on one side of its body than on the other side. This implies a gradient of charge from one point in the aquarium to another, which means that current is flowing.

Current must flow TO somewhere, even in an aquarium. Typically to a grounding rod, sometimes to an unfortunate aquarist. If that's happening, of course, we'll likely never practically achieve a 10,000v difference in charge.

Saltwater's a pretty good conductor compared to most things. Without current flow, the charge across the tank will be the same. Within the tank itself, the charge is the same. If you were in the tank with a snorkel and some kind of waterproof voltmeter, you couldn't tell me if the tank were at 0 volts compared to ground, or 10,000,000 volts compared to ground, because you must be able to access the reference point to detect the difference. You can't do that without at least some part of you (or your metering equipment) leaving the tank, and neither can a fish. It can't be done when completely enveloped by the charged material. Stored charge on a tank is meaningless within the tank itself.

While an ungrounded tank, or person, can develop a charge (ever give someone a static shock, or get zapped off a light switch (grounded screw), or a car door?), I don't think this is the real danger for most folks.
More threatening is a leaky appliance, a heater, or a powerhead motor that has a conductor which becomes exposed to the tank water. This is not a static potential charge, but one that varies due to the alternating current that feeds the appliance. This charge also goes nowhere, but should a current path develop, the current will flow so long as there is power to the appliance. It won't just bleed off and be gone like a static charge. A ground probe is a great way to make this current flow, and that probe along with a GFI outlet feeding the appliance will make the GFI trip, assuming everything is working right.

An exercise for the reader: If you're still in the water with your snorkel and meter, and there's no ground probe or other source of potential difference, can you (or the fish) detect when ONE side of a heater's power is in contact with the water?

Another thing to think about: If you have your pumps plugged into your fancy Tripp-Lite UPS, and the UPS is plugged into your GFI, are you protected? What if something else plugged into the GFI trips it off, and UPS starts feeding the pump via battery/inverter... Are you protected?
What if it was that very same pump that tripped the GFI?