consumer owner Local fish store

[MNotter]

consumer owned Local fish store I am writing this in response to some of the posts lately that have found problems with their LFS. Because of these reasons and others I have begun to think that reefers and fellow fish keepers should attempt a move to consumer owned local fish stores.

I live in St. Paul, MN and even with our large, well off metropolitain area we have no local fish stores that I trust to provide great knowledge or service. I have been in and out of the fish business since I was 17 and so I know this area very well. This applies to greater minnesota as well.

Cooperative fish stores could offer many advantages to it owners/customers. Similar to how a local grocery cooperative works. Provide education, carry products consumers wants, newsletters, promote captive breed and sustainable wild caught live animals. Mail ordering corals could be a thing of the past and benefit us all. Long-term goal could also be captive breeding program onsite (ie greenhouse).

I have a vision of a hobby that is more informed and doesn't create its own headaches. Let me know what you all think, both positive and negative.

For those of you that will propose the classic arguement that this will lead to inefficancy and higher prices let me give you one point to think about before you do. We deal with live animals and much miss information. We all know that an informed reefer can save herself/himself large amounts of money.

Thanks,
Dave

[Tutmos]

Ocean Devotion seems to be filling this niche already. I just hope they keep heading in their current direction.

Here's the other fun aspect of a "community owned" setup. Can you imagine the finger pointing when the sps prop tanks are found to be infested with flatworms or other nasty predators?

[Frogbone]

this

[MNotter]

I consumer owned LFS (co-op) would opperate much like any other business. Flatworm infestation wouldn't be any bigger problem then it would be for say Ocean Devotion. You don't find parasite invested vegetables at your local grocery co-op do you?

[otolith]

Dave,
Interesting concept, tell us a little more about yourself and how you think we "consumers" would be able to pull this off.

[tims]

[Graham]

Seems kinda troll-ish, but I'll play along...

It would be easy to implement, but I can't see how it would benefit anyone all that much. We already have access to livestock (frags, etc) and goods at very low cost. As for livestock, we've all seen things that can be found locally vs. what can be had online. The sad truth is that the big guys (esp West Coast) have "dibbs" on most of the real nice stuff that gets imported. I know some locals can get stuff straight from Bali or wherever, but I've never seen anything come in local that holds a candle to the best I've seen online. With that in mind, I don't think a venture into livestock would yield anything better than what can already be fragged by someone in the club. We've all seen LFS corals, and I have to think real hard about the last time I saw one that caught my eye....

Co-ops are not for profit, so no one makes money other than in labor given (if at all). The only thing that would be involved is ALOT more work to essentially get things that we can already get. In the past, the club has served well as a jump-off point for group/bulk buys. Why would we need a formal entity to do what can already be done? Again, more "organization" is just a formality that (IMO) isn't needed. Very few people here would have the time it would take. I think most of us have lives that prevent us from working much more than the job we already have (which coincidentally likely pays much more than working at a fish store co-op ) - which is why we can afford a reef tank (or three).

In the end, this might appeal to someone looking for a new career or business venture, but I doubt many clubbers are in a position to give up their lives for a venture into a market where the average life expectancy of a newcomer is probably only a few years...and a constant struggle.

JMO...

[MNotter]

otolith to answer your question....

I have been in the hobby since I was 14. At 18 I took a job at a LFS. A year later I began working at a fish wholesaler that dealt exclusivly with marine livestock. After that I worked at an aquarium maintenace company for a few years. I then started my own aquarium service company. I owned that for 4 years and then sold it to return to college and finish my degree. I will be graduting this spring with a degree in Environmental Studies and Political Science.

I have had the joy of owning a few reef systems over the years. Which included sucessful propagation of sps, softies, macro algae and anemones. It one point I was selling large quanities to the wholesaler I was working at.

Graham, In response to what you wrote...
I understand you point and it is extremely valid. But let me offer this. Becoming a member of a co-op in most cases doesn't require any amount of work. Just a purchase of a single share. I am a member of a grocery co-op and all I had to do was buy a share and then shop there. No work required. There will be some people who will have to put in some work to get it started, but the majority of members will not. As a member, you simply shop at the store like any LFS.

You are correct co-ops are not for profit nor are they a non-profit. They receive special tax status that allows profits to be returned to the customer tax free.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could all own a lfs, that we could all have input in, and a lifetime relationship? and also receive a rebate check every year. It would be nice to invest in something that is part of the community, owned by the community, and gives back to the community.

[Graham]

I worked at the Wedge for 6 years, so I feel like I have a decent handle on the model of a successful co-op. I was there throughout 2 expansions and saw sales top the national list for retail sales per square foot of retail space every single year. So yes, it can be a very successful model.

The whole idea is to create an entity to bring in goods (and services) to a community where they are lacking. IMO, the goods and services in this case aren't at all lacking in this community, though your idea is a noble one....IMO, the market is at its carrying capacity and I'm not aware of any reasonable demands that aren't being satisfied in some way. Mpls will never be a market for ultra premium SPS corals unless we raise them ourselves. We're too far removed from Walt Smith . This doesn't require a co-op, but the club helps.

Someone has to put their neck on the line to get money to finance it. The setup cost for a LFS is no small deal. I'm sure many clubbers could make products for a reasonable fee this lowering cost, but still a large chunk of change.

To address your labor point. When a co-op starts, it is indeed the founding members who put in the bulk of the initial labor - and this would more than likely be meagerly compensated. In the case of the Wedge, the founding members were the primary labor for several years after it started. They are also selling food (something everyone needs) and not specialty hobby items. The challenge would be daunting to say the least. Perhaps more a venture for the young piss-n-vinegar reefers out there, but I'd bet most of us complacent old guys are too comfy shopping the net for our organic cruelty-free captive-raised fishies.

[blackdog]

Originally Posted by Graham

It would be easy to implement, but I can't see how it would benefit anyone all that much. We already have access to livestock (frags, etc) and goods at very low cost. As for livestock, we've all seen things that can be found locally vs. what can be had online. The sad truth is that the big guys (esp West Coast) have "dibbs" on most of the real nice stuff that gets imported. I know some locals can get stuff straight from Bali or wherever, but I've never seen anything come in local that holds a candle to the best I've seen online. With that in mind, I don't think a venture into livestock would yield anything better than what can already be fragged by someone in the club. We've all seen LFS corals, and I have to think real hard about the last time I saw one that caught my eye....
JMO...

Graham - you need to get out more.....

[Graham]

OK, save OD, since I have yet to stop in.
I suppose I should wear a diaper then?
(go ahead and have a ball with that one...)

[JnS]

Originally Posted by Graham

OK, save OD, since I have yet to stop in.
I suppose I should wear a diaper then?
(go ahead and have a ball with that one...)

pacifier also?

[Graham]

Hmmm....not really what I was getting at, but sure.

Not to derail this thread any more than I already have, but I'd think I'd be seeing pics of awesome locally-found specimens if they were out there and being bought. I haven't seen any (from LFSs) though and that might be part of the reason I don't get out as much as I otherwise would.

[blackdog]

Originally Posted by Graham

Hmmm....not really what I was getting at, but sure.

Not to derail this thread any more than I already have, but I'd think I'd be seeing pics of awesome locally-found specimens if they were out there and being bought. I haven't seen any (from LFSs) though and that might be part of the reason I don't get out as much as I otherwise would.

If you wanna see it you gotta support it. You admit you haven't seen it and you admit you haven't looked. 0=0 everytime.

[mtfatwork]

Its a novel idea, but if you look hard enough there are plenty of small time lfs operating out of basements, that show the same true passion for the hobby without having the overhead.