Bi-Weekly Discussion of the Week: Clean-Up Crews

[Casey]

Will do Cat thanks for the tip

[Toadfish]

Everyone has mentioned what they have as far as a cleanup crew, but how many are to many...and how many are to few? What's a correct balance? For instance in my 75g, I have about 20 bumble bees, 120-140 nassarius snails, 3 fighting conchs, and a sea cuke. Is this overload, am I going to have a lack of food source? These critters are working on a 3-5" DSB.

[Jimmer]

Anyone have any input as to whether or not sand sifting stars consume the microfauna or pods in a DSB??

[Geoff]

Toadfish-this sounds like overload to me for the snails. your proportions a pretty close though. i would have done something like 6 bumblebees (they can be a little aggressive towards things that could be dying, so i do not like having to many of these, but they are great scavangers) 30-40 nassarius (great detritus eaters, depending on the contents of the tank, they will breed, so they can reach an equilibrium on their own) 1 fighting conch (good for getting those tiny patches of cyano or other algae on the sand) 30 astreas (great like Spanky said, for getting rid of algae on the glass) i would also suggest 15 ceriths for cleaning and sand stirring.

Jimmer- from what i understand the sifting stars are very good at removing worms and other infauna from the sand. most pods are faster than the star, so they are not as heavily preyed upon as people think.

G~

[Jimmer]

Originally posted by Geoff
Jimmer- from what i understand the sifting stars are very good at removing worms and other infauna from the sand. most pods are faster than the star, so they are not as heavily preyed upon as people think.

G~

So based upon that is it better to have worms and snails (conches) or stars? Which provides the best benefit for a DSB?
BE NICE JEREL!

[Geoff]

IMO- i believe the worms are the important critters in a DSB (besides the bacteria). these are need to keep it from clumping. they also help in keeping it aerated. their tunnels allow good exchange of water throughout the DSB. i am starting to lean towards the cukes as a large bed stirrer. cukes eat the biofilm off of the substrate as it goes through them. they are slower about going through the substrate than a star. the amount of area they wipe out is smaller than a star. they will go deeper into a DSB than a star. now for which cukes are better i do not know. i know the turd ones are not poisonous, but which ones are the deeper burrowing i do not know.

G~

[tdwyatt]

just my personal observations, but most of the sand consuming sea cucumbers I have do not burrow through the sand at all, rather cruise the surface and pick up sand with their oral tentacles, then poop little clean sand pellets that dissipate into the sand bed again.

The worms are the real workers in the sand bed, you need lots of them (and they are usually there unless you have fish predators.)

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Jimmer
So based upon that is it better to have worms and snails (conches) or stars? Which provides the best benefit for a DSB?
BE NICE JEREL!

LOL, The worms that Tom mentioned and any burrowing snails that don't eat meat but do eat detritus and plant material. Like ceriths. Only you need a whole lot of them.

[yardboy]

Tickles me how conchs will bury themselves in the sand for days, with only their proboscis(?) sticking out, sucking off the surface of the sand. For my money, I'd choose spaghetti worms as most efficient. They leave a little circle of cleanliness around their burrows, and I've seen them fight fish for for flake food or mysis. My tang will occasionally snatch food out of a fungia, but has a hell of a time with a spaghetti worm! And cool how those little tiny tentacles can drag quite a substantial rock over to their burrow for protection!Of course they don't do anything to rock, or do they? The populations getting so high in mine I'm noticing tentacles on the rock.

[Geoff]

i have not had a cuke in several years, but i do remember the one i had burrowing into the substrate. i remember looking at it through the glass one day.

so off i went on a google info search. i found that they tend to bury themselves when resting. they do not eat while burried like Tom said. they generally feed at night.

Tom-do your cukes bury themselves at all? what kind do you have? curious now.

G~

[CAT]

Originally posted by tdwyatt

The worms are the real workers in the sand bed, you need lots of them (and they are usually there unless you have fish predators.)

Does someone have a pic of these worms. Are we talking about the ones that have 2 threads that wave around at feeding time?

[SPC]

Originally posted by Geoff
i have not had a cuke in several years, but i do remember the one i had burrowing into the substrate. i remember looking at it through the glass one day.

so off i went on a google info search. i found that they tend to bury themselves when resting. they do not eat while burried like Tom said. they generally feed at night.

Tom-do your cukes bury themselves at all? what kind do you have? curious now.

G~

Good morning Geoff,

I have a brown cuke from the Atlantic (turd cuke) that acts exactly like what Tom has described (never burrows below the sand while feeding). However, he does tend to be nocturnal and hides during the day, so I can't say for a fact what he is doing during his rest time.
Steve

[Geoff]

i would be curious to know if they hide behind the LR or bury themselves during the day. one of those preference things i guess. it would be beneficial if they would bury in the sand and not hide in the LR. that way they could help stir the bed. now i wish i knew which one i had all those years ago. it was black. i also had really bad LR then so it prolly did not want to have anything to do with hiding there.

G~

[tdwyatt]

Originally posted by Geoff
...do your cukes bury themselves at all? what kind do you have? curious now.

Geoff, I honestly can't say that I have ever seen them bury themselves, I do see then wrapped around the base of the LR during the day, and seldom see them out during the day if at all. They do feed almost exclusively at night. I have so much space under the rocks (remember that I have the PVC suspending all the rock in the tank, with very little actually in contact with the sand) that these Holithurian spp. may not feel the need to bury themselves during the day, they may just seek to evade the light of day. These are, for the most part, Atlantic spp. of Holothurians, most of them are likely variants of Holothuria floridians and H. hilla, although I do also have a seldom seen burnt hotdog cuke from Hawaii. Prolly have 10 different variants of H. hilla maybe 2 large tigertails, the burnt hotdog, 4 of some unidentifieable variant of the black seacukes from indonesia, and a few that I have acquired over time that I only see once every several months. These resemble the H.hilla, but are definitely a different spp., as the only time I see them is when they decide to climb the glass at night and wave in the current (spawning???). They have different markings and the "spines" are not nearly as pronounced, more like warts.

I find these to be fascinating creatures and the systems here will support them (and they keep the sand REALLY clean while converting some of the primary production of the sand bed into biomass). Biggest problem with them has been the new reeftop biotope seems to have too much current across the sandbeds for them to adequately adhere to the substrate, I may end up moving them all the the lagoonal systems.

Some links for the Holuthurians and pix:

black cuke data sheet

Pix of common ones and a few that I have

Reference pix page for Holothurians

Tigertail (one version)

Tigertail as H. hilla, or the shortcomings of common names

short art. on Medical research on physiology of gut regeneration

Gut analysis as to granule size and content

Interesting article on reproduction of fissiperous nature vs sexual nature