Refugium - Ecosystem 3012 model

[bfish5150]

Curious if anybody has had much experience with the refugiums manufactured by EcoSystems? In doing some research and balancing costs, I may lean this way. I understand there are cheaper avenues to take for cost of refugiums, but I'm really impressed with the ecosystem 3012 model. It is easy to set-up and the manufacturer states that no protein skimmer is required. It comes with 20 lbs of their miracle mud and just requires the purchase of a Mag12 pump or similar size. A LFS in my area, Nui Kai Fish Co., uses an EcoSystems 3612 model on a 100 gallon reef tank they have on display in the store. I had never realized what they had used for a sump/refugium on the tank until I asked the owner. The owner had nothing but good things to say about his EcoSystem unit. The owner told me that within a week of setting up that aquarium, which is also running MH lighting, it was already to go for placing some sps in it and get the show running. He told me that the reef tank almost runs itself and it's one of the best refugiums he's ever seen. He especially likes the unit because now he doesn't ever have to run a protein skimmer with that reef tank. And this tank is one of the best reef tanks in his store, I think it says a lot for the EcoSystem units. The one thing I have noticed about the EcoSystem 3012 model is that every online retailer is selling them for retail. I'm finding it hard to believe that I could actually purchase this at a LFS instead of online and save money that way! Couldn't locate any on Ebay and I am continuing to search for a good deal. Thanks for the help.

[mojoreef]

bfish I find it a big statement for them to say that usuing the ecosytem refugium means you dont have to skim and that the tank runs itself. IMHO it is just a refugium that is expencesive and contains mud. Now the mud being a fine sediment will allow for a large ammount of bacteria population and thus will do ok for denitrification, but that is just one thing. Also I dont know if you have seen the chemical breakdown for the mud but it is laidened with a ton of metals, this alone kinda scares me. I would find the use of a standard refugium and a skimmer a much safer bet.

anyway I dont want to get inot a battle with all the ecosystem users out thier but just wanted you to see the other side of it to.


Mike

[bfish5150]

Thanks Mike for the reply. I do appreciate any and all info I get back from everybody. I thought it was too good to be true as well when the LFS told me they don't use a protein skimmer on that reef tank they have and it is very healthy. Much of the same clams, sps and other tank mates have been in there a long time, in fact it is almost more of a show tank than anything else, with nothing being for sale in it. So I know it isn't one of those deals where they are selling through their stock every week and placing new stuff in there to make it look good. To verify what the LFS told me about the protein skimmer, I visited the ecosystem website, http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/sumps_kits.html and found they are also state, very proudly it appears, that no skimmer is needed with their system. I know this is a fancy acrylic box with baffles, bioballs, that sort of thing. Obviously it is this miracle mud that is doing the work. They state to do a 50% mud change every two years to replenish the mud back to 100%. It comes with a couple of pc lights to grow the algae.

[Hommeworks]

When I 1st set up my reef tank I installed a EcoSystem sump. It did good during the breakin period. I was worried about clumps of the algae grass getting into the display, releasing stored nutrients, it made a lot of noise where the water spills into it(despite dampening with bio-balls). I switched to a conventional Berlin sump w/ skimmer. At least I can see nutrients are getting pulled, cleaning it is not desireable. I think energy savings are a wash, a skimmer pump versus 4 PC florencent lights.

If you are serious about this sump, let me know. I have a brand new one in a box, never been opened. I'd like to reclaim some closet space.

[mojoreef]

Hey Bfish here is a chemical analysis of miricle mud by 2 seperate sources. If you look at whats in it I think you will see why my concern.

http://www.inlandreef.com/MManalysis.html

[bfish5150]

Hommeworks- will have to think about that sump you have. Which model is it? I'm looking for a 3012 model, if I go that route. I'm still researching this thoroughly, but I will stay in touch regarding that sump you have from EcoSystems.

Mike - pretty interesting all of the metals that are contained in miracle mud. I was surprised to see that much aluminum and titanium. The other metals like iron, strontium, I wasn't too surprised to see those, being that they are so common in many reef additives. This LFS that I go to has been in the valley here for many years and the owner is very knowledgable about reef tanks. I certainly know that he wouldn't risk running such an expensive set-up without a protein skimmer if he wasn't confident that it could support the tank. From reading EcoSystems' website, they've got testimonial after testimonial from many aquarium magazine reviews, veternarians specializing in fish care, many influential writers and experts in the field of saltwater technology. It's a pretty convincing product, but I know that you can't believe everything you read. I guess that I'm just real torn on what to do then. I like the idea of saving a couple hundred dollars on not having to buy a skimmer, and just focusing that money on getting a top quality refugium/sump. My LFS has never steered me wrong so far and I've bought nearly everything from him over this last decade or so. I just wish there wasn't so many products on the market sometimes, make it much easier.

[Big Dave]

used sump with baffles.... $30-
new skimmer on ebay.... $80-
knowing you saved a load of cash instead of buying fancy expensive stuff.... priceless.

The claims may be true about no skimmer needed, BUT, what if this unit does not support your tank and you still need a skimmer? Remember, what works for someone does NOT always work for others. Just trying to possibly save you some money in the long run. I'm sure a lot of their claim is contingent on the rest of the tank. If you have a ton of LR and a DSB, then less nutrient removal makes sense. There are skimmerless systems out there, so maybe do research on those systems and see how they are run. Just stuff to think about.

-Big Dave

[mojoreef]

bfish please dont get me wrong I am not trying to slag either the LFS or the product. These boards are so that that folks like us can get all sides of the story and make an educated dessision from the info we gather. Biology is biology and chemistry is chemistry, we may implore different checks and balances to achiev the same goal but we never change those.

On the unit, this is how I see it. Water enters the chamber, at this point bio balls are use for the creation of oxygenated bacteria. This bacteria will convert ammonia to nitrate, then I assume the water with the nitrate will pour into the mudded section. This section, because of the finess of the sedimant has a population of non-oxygenated bacteria which will complete the cycle and convert the nitrate to nitrogen gas and so on. Thier are a couple of questions to ask.
First is the contact time of the water that has the nitrate in it enough to fully do its job.
Second, since the non oxygenated bacteria is in the lower depths of the mud (or at least below its surface) have the abitily to draw in the nitrate laidened water, and if so it would most likely be not as effective.
third If the DSB is a method you choose to use (which to a degree the ecosystem is) it would be much more effective to have the oxygenated bacteria on the sand bed hand off the nitrate ladened water to the non oxygenated bacteria which is directly below them. Thus not allowing the water to pass through to the tank and its inhabitants.
forth, looking at the metal concintrations and comparing it to natural Seawater or even to most salt mixes and additives I personally have to wonder if thier are not going to be short and long term effects to my inhabitants.
Next is to do with the cost. IMPO if I wanted to go with a DSB type of denitrification system I would not spend the kind of money they wanted on the ecosystem as I feel a more effective way (as I discribed above) is a whole ton of money cheaper.

So again my friend I am not saying that it is crap or that people that use it are crasy. It is one method of checks and balances that u can use in order to counter the problem that we face in trying to keep animals in captive reefs, but in my opinion it is not as effective and is over priced compared to other checks and balances we can use. put that together with its chemical composistion and I am going in antoher direction.

anyway sorry for the ramblings

take care

mike

[bfish5150]

Thanks Mike for the info. I was just getting a little frustrated yesterday because of how many different options are available for refugiums/sumps/skimmers. I do agree that not every tank is the same and what may work for one, may not for mine. I'm not going to make a hasty decision with this. I was ready to go buy a skimmer and a refugium, do it right and go with the tried and tested method. I know a skimmer/refugium would do the job for my tank. But then I find out about this ecosystems company and threw me for a loop. I couldn't believe that they don't utilize a skimmer in their systems. I personally think that there refugiums are way over priced for just an acrylic box with some mud in the bottom. Mike thanks for answering my questions and I will have to think on this but chances are I may go with what I originally intended to purchase.

[Sue Truett]

I am a very happy owner of an ecosystem reef tank. That said I have had this 180g tank set-up for just at 2 years now. It is an sps/clam tank and the fish couldn't be healthier. I have never ran a skimmer on it and have yet to have any problems. I have done the 20% mud exchange and still not a single problem. I had a 65g custom sump built by my LFS, who is a distributor for ecosystems, and they are about all he is utilizing in his maintenance business. If that is not the true test of these systems I don't know what would be. His tanks he maintains are taken care of once weekly and the business's are happy with nice healthy reef tanks.

My 120g tank was set-up 5 years ago next month. After 2 years the tank just went into a steady decline with corals at a halt as far as growth and we switched it over to an ecosystem and this tank is doing great. Probably better than it ever looked. All the plagues it had, bryopsis etc. are gone and the tank is great.

I will never get into another ecosystem debate, but wanted to let you know I have one, hey I have 2, and it has done nothing but good things for me. Plus the ecosystems in our local reef club and the systems that my LFS has installed in his shop. I know of not one problem with any of them.

my 180 ecosystem sps/clam tank:
http://berlinmethod.com/suet/
my 120 ecosystem sps tank:
http://suetruett.homestead.com/home.html

[Michigan kelly]

I am another satisfied owner of an ecosystem refugium. I have a 65 gallon display tank that I set up with the ecosystem last January. No skimmer. The only problem I have had really is that my calurpa will sometimes crash overnight and I have to buy more to restock the refugium. This has happened to me twice and even though I have left the lights run on the refugium for 24/7. I have tried a few different varieties of calurpa and seem to have found one that has finally lasted. Can't think of the name of it but I have not replaced any for at least 6 months. By the way, my LFS also uses the ecosystem on a number of its tanks and on a beautiful 200 gallon display tank. I have never had a tank with a skimmer so don't have it to compare to the ecosystem. Anyway, this has been my experience but topic always seems to generate a lot of debate. Good luck with whatever decision you make.

[seahawkjohnny]

IMHO concerning the mud, I think the most benificial element is the Iron, this helps the Caluepra grow, and I really dont think the sand bed in the sump does much ...its only 1"......as far as denitrifing

[Doug1]

SHJ, a decent crop of caulerpa along with an inch of mud should remove nitrate nicely, if harvested regularly.
I dont use Ecosystem so I cant say one way or another, but I have seen pics ofSues tank way back when I started and WOW!!!!!