Advice:Substrate change

[Paradox]

Hello, I have posted earlier about having a green algae problem which is almost under control. I have a 50 Gallon Tall curently with Crushed coral substrate. I also only have approximately 40 lbs of live rock. I was told that the crushed coral probably added to my nitrate and algae problems. I am planning on changing all my CC out with 60 lbs of Live Aragonite. I do have a few questions. I plan plan on taking out all the corals and live rock while I do all the dirty work in the tank.

-Will I be having a recycling occur? (I suspect not, since this live sand is typically used to avoid cycling of the tank)

- Is there a specific method of changing the substrate that would make my life the eaasiest?

-Ive read much about different substrates and DSBs on this site, but theres so many good and bad points to each that I just got confused. I will probably only have around 2-3 inches of sand, so it will not be a DSB. What kind of maintanence do I need with this? Do I ever need to siphon it?

-What are the best sand cleaning critters?

Thanks Again!!

Daniel

[Paradox]

Also, If I add this much live sand, should I eventually remove the canister filter? I know I dont have that much live rock, but I was wondering if the 60 lbs of live rock and the Back Pack skimmer/biological filter will be enough.

D.

[Geoff]

how often do you clean the canister filter? this could be fueling your algae problems. canister should be cleaned before they get dirty. at least once a week. if not then they start producing nitrates faster than the rest of the tank can remove them. you can remove it if you want, but i would prolly keep it on there as a great way to export lots of detritus. as long as you clean it at least once a week, prolly need to clean it twice a week. this is how often i have to clean the sponges on my tank.

G~

[Paradox]

Before I came to this website, I hardly ever cleaned it. I clean in every couple weeks now, but will do it more often. My algae problem is almost under control. I would like to eventually remove the canister, since it is a pain to open it up and clean it once or even twice a week. If i change my substrate to live sand and not keep a huge bio load, would this be ok? Also, will adding the sand cause any recycling occur?

Thanks!!
D.

[R1Bill]

adding the sand if it is really live, will not cause a cycle. what will probable cause a mini cycle is the loss of the processing of your current sandbed and the brief exposure to air of the stuff in your tank. to do this i would:
1) save as much of the water in your tank as possible. put it in buckets with all of the rocks and corals in your tank. put it all in a spot in your place where the temp will not drop.
2) make enough salt water for several complete water changes at least a week before you do this.
3) put 75% dead sand in your tank. add a little of your old water. add the live sand then add the rest of your creatures and water. monitor closly - every 8 hours or so and immediatly do large water changes if you detect any ammonia!
4) use lots of carbon in your filter for a week or two.
5) get more light in two months when everything is normal.

i wouldn't use all live sand because if any of it is not healty it will cause a large cycle and kill everything.

bill

[R1Bill]

btw, where are you getting your live sand? all the stuff i've seen in bags isn't what i would call live. all it has is bacteria, no worms, ministars, or any other creatures normally found in real live sand. imho, the stuff in the bags is completely useless.

bill

[Paradox]

Thanks for your response Bill!!

ARg Im frustrated now. Yes, the live sand I have are from bags and the guys at the LFS said it was good. It states on the bags that no cycling will occur if you use it.

Why does it seem that everytime I try to go a step further with my tank i end up a step back..=(

So what are my options? Is this stuff really bad? What if I put all the sand in a bucket and vaccuum my current gravel and put the gravel water in the bucket to aid seeding the sand? Will this help?

Or Can I still use this sand to just replace the CC and keep a lot of water ready in case ammonia goes crazy? BTW, I do not have any fish atm and I only have a xenia, a couple soft corals, carpet anenomeand star polyps. I also have a clean up crew with snails, and different hermits.

Why is it not healthy to use only live sand? Should I get some play sand from home depot and mix it with it?

Sorry for all the questions...I just want to finnally get things right with this tank..

Daniel

[Geoff]

there is not reason you can not use all live sand. it is usually more expensive than necessary, but will be just fine. you could seed the new LS with some of your critters from the old sand. i usually put some of the old stuff in an old nylon stocking. half bury it in the new sand for a couple of weeks. the critters can get through the nylon to help seed the new sand. when replacing sand or removing sand i find it easier to just siphon all the water you can get out cleanly, do not get any brown water. you should be able to get almost all of it. being really carefull not to disturb the detritus when you remove the LR and corals. make sure you have plenty of made up SW to help top of when done.

hth,

G~

[R1Bill]

you can use only the live sand from the bag. mostly i was just trying to save you some expense. yours may be different but all of the stuff i've seen in bags like that has only bacteria and is great for helping the cycle in a brand new tank. you don't have a brand new tank so it doesn't really do anything for you. however if one of the bags is bad, you could cause problems. if it smells fresh when you open it, it should be ok.

now you see why we usually don't believe ANYTHING that anybody at a LFS tells you!!!!!! there is a LFS owner that posts on this site that knows what she is doing but she is an exception. my experience is that most of them will sell you anything just to make a buck. for instance, one local fish store that sells lots of reef creatures and will tell you that they are "THE EX-SPURT", get their beautiful display tanks serviced by a company that has to drive 45 miles each way to take care of their tanks. my favorite place where i still spend lots of money, the owner sold me, because i thought it was pretty and he wanted to make a buck, majano aptasia. he even admitted later that he knew what it was. lesson, do your research, post here, etc.

the problem i have with the bags is that they are not what we call "live sand". no creatures only bacteria. so, if you can take it back for credit.... i would get the very finest aragonite you can find. you can get it at most LFS.

make lots of extra salt water for changes a week ahead of time just in case! also clean your filters a week ahead of time so that they are full of bacteria by the time you do your changeout. make sure that they stay wet while you work on the tank so that the bacteria does not die.

to change your sand, i would:
get a large plastic garbage can or two,
rinse them out carefully,
put all of your old water and creatures in it,
remove all CC from tank and sell back to store. do not return it to your tank under any circumstances.
rinse out tank
put sand in tank
make sure it is 3-4 inches deep.
put dinner plate on sand
pour water on dinner plate - this prevents the sandstorm
when tank is 1/2 full, add rock and creatures back
fill tank with rest of old water
add new water for make-up
put charcoal in your filter to absorb any nasties from your transition.
monitor ammonia for a week several times/day.
do 50% water changes if you detect any ammonia immediately.

the best place to get creatures to make your sand really "live" is www.ipsf.com and www.inlandaquatics.com

where are you located in sf? you are welcome to come by and see my tank any time you are in the east bay.

bill

[Paradox]

Bill and Geoff, Thanks immensly for the advise. Ive found this website to be incredibly useful. Since discovering it a couple weeks ago, Ive already become addicted to reading every post.

I do not have enough containers, nor the room to hold most of the water. Im renting a room in a house and San Francisco isnt known for its large available spaces. If I try to remove as much water as possible and remove the CC with the remaining water in the tank, is the left over detrius gonna be bad? What if I run my canister for a while after the CC is removed, to clean the water and then clean the canister before I set it up again?


I live in Bernal Heights which is the southern part of SF, but not quit south san francisco. I purchased the live sand at 3rd street aquarium, and this place may have everything, but they WILL sell you anything without hesitation. They usually have constnat new and huge livestock and sell for really cheap, but most animals here are sick and will die. Also, its a self serve place, so hundreds of hands go into their tanks every day. They prey on the impulsive aspect of most aquarium hobbiests. Unfortunately, in the beginning of my reef hobby, I too made some impulsive purchases.

But im digressing and starting to rant....


D.

[dawn]

When I switched from cc to sand, I took about a quarter of the cc out at a time (I took a few weeks to do this) and didn't add the sand until I had enough of a bare spot on the bottom of my tank to put the sand in.

I also used bagged sand from my LFS for my base and then bought live sand from to add to the top of it.

It took awhile to get it all the way I wanted it, but now it looks great.

By the way, I opted not to go with a deep sand bed and only have a few inches for decorative purposes.

[Geoff]

running the water with the cannister will work, if that is what ya got. this should clean a lot of the detritus out. if you can have it running while you are removing the sand it would be even better. clean it often so it will maintain its flow throught the filter.

G~

[R1Bill]

if you don't have all of the water storage containers, use dawn's method. just go slow! check for ammonia often and make some extra salt water ASAP in case something goes wrong. use a cup and just scoop a few cups of CC out every day and add your new sand as soon as you have room. once you stir up a lot of detritus wait till the next day before removing more sand. you can syphon off the detritus from the surface. to add your sand, get a section of pvc pipe, put one end at the bottom of the tank and pour the sand into the other. this directs your sand and minimizes your sandstorm.

bill

[Paradox]

OK..since last post, I have changed out all the crushed coral with the 'bagged' live sand. It wasnt as big of a job as I anticipated. I was able to keep about 70% of the water. So far, so good. I have no fluctuations in chemistry and everythings is looking healthy.

Bill, Im interested in purchasing some of the live sand activators/critters from www.ipsf.com ? What do you advise? Would the basic live sand activator package suffice? Is there anything else I should get?

Daniel

[photobarry]

Ack! Paradox and R1Bill having the same avatar was confusing the heck out of me. I thought someone was talking to themselve. LOL