Loosing fish??

[fliberdygibits]

I have a small tank, 29 gal, that completed it's cycle about 2 months ago. Amonia & Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10-20 (I lost the little color strip), PH 8.2, SG 1.021, temp 79. Ever since it finished cycling, water conditions have been great, but one at a time I have lost fish. Even new healthy ones that I have bought. One fish will act stressed, then go downhill till I find him dead. I will let the tank sit a few days (even a week in once case) then add a new fish, he does fine for a while, then starts downhill and dies, or it might be a different fish altogether. The most recent was a watchman goby who NEVER experienced ANY amonia or nitrites except maybe the tiny cycle I got from putting him in. He was fine for about 2 weeks then wham. The other fish were cheap petco damsels used for the cycling, they may have died cause they were petco, but the goby I got from a local LFS that I like. The tank is only 29 gal, could he have used up all the food? Is there something else in my water that I am missing?

Thanks for any input.

[fliberdygibits]

I have about a 3 inch sandbed, and only about 15 lbs LR. I have been building up the LR slowly. Could it be that 15 lbs is just not enough to provide biological filtration for more than 2 or 3 fish and a few snails?

Thanks again.

[beach bum]

What kind of filtration are you running? skimmer, wet dry, power, canister? When you say they start going downhill, how do you know? what are the signs? not eating, flashing, lethargic, erratic swimming?

Or, maybe you should look for notes they might have left behind, starting with the words "I just can't go on any longer.... " or "How come everybody else has friends but me...."

[fliberdygibits]

They still have good appetites and seem healthy when I work around the tank, but when left on their own, they begin to clamp their fins closed, then (except for the goby) they begin to swim a bit erraticaly, usually into the flow of a power head. They do that for several days. Currently I have a domino damsel that is doing that.... he sits in front of the power head 24 hours a day except when I get near the tank at which point he opens his fins and comes to the glass as if waiting for a hand out. The whole time I (or anyone) stand there, he is out acting like a normal healthy fish. Several people have told me that swimming into a power head is a sign they aren't getting enough oxygen. I know that I had a mini-cycle nearly a week ago which is ROUGHLY when this fish started this, but amonia and nitrite never went above about .2 and it was less than 24 hours so I can't imagine he got gill burn that bad, but I am definately no expert. Everyone I have asked about this says that that should not have stressed a damsel, at least not for over a week. I have 2 millinium 1000s without the "BioGrid" thing, just the venturi for oxygenation. I also have a cheap lee skimmer with a small RIO power head on it for water flow instead of the usual rising air method. It produces a relatively dry skimmate that I have to empty every few days.... for the money I spent I think it's doing great. I also have an ebo jager 150 watt heater. And lastly I have an Aquarium Systems Micro Jet power head for circulation mounted lower down in the tank pointing up.

Thanks for the input.

[fliberdygibits]

They always have good appetites, and their colors seem a bit faded...... The damsel I have doing this right now is not pure black... he is a faded grayish color.

[dark horge]

Your SG is on the much lower end on acceptability, but likely isn't by itself the cause.
That is a sign of severe stress, and I would not rule out poisoning. You had best give us a detailed breakdown of your filtration system, and any and all media you've put in.

I remember one case where a hobbyist had the very best equipment, but had used a piece of cheap cloth in a drip tray for preliminary mech filtration right out of the overflow. He would change the cloth once a week once it got too grubby. Problem was, the cloth was always from a brand new bolt of the stuff, practically pregnant with all manner of chemical.

Again, where'd you get the tank, the rock, the sand, the filtration and media.... ?

[fliberdygibits]

the tank was second hand and was cleaned with CLR at someone's recommendation and so much fresh tap water I can't even imagine how much. The sand I bought at Petco (I know, I know). My LR came from upscales in tualatin. The filtration as I said is two Millinium1000s with the "BioGrid(t)" removed so that it is really just a hang on power filter with built in areation. Then I have the skimmer and two power heads. I have nothing in my tank that wasn't designed for aquariums. The tank is sort of close to the kitchen, but my wife and I have been eating out so much I think the only thing the tank may have been exposed to is steam from making hot tea. When I had the mini cycle from adding a fish and some rock I added some Seachem Prime to the tank, other than that there are no carbons or resins or chemicals, no filter or pre-filter pads, nothing.

I hadn't really thought about the CLR till now. Someone recommended it at Petsmart and it sounded like a plan at the time. I had mineral deposits in this tank that even a power sander wouldn't remove, so it was all I could think of. I rinsed the thing so much I don't know how any CLR could have survived, but could be. Other than that, there has never been anything chemically near the tank that wasn't made for fish.

Thanks for the info.

[karsco]

Fliber, I second DH's comments. You need to slowly get your SG up to at least 1.023 to 1.025 range. I would take a sample of your water to your LFS and double check your readings. I had a test kit one time that was reading my nitrates at 10 PPM and they were really at 40 PPM. What was the name of the cleaner you used on your tank? Do you still have any of it left?

[Brooke]

fliber-

It very well might be the CLR...but probably not. We use vinegar to clean mineral deposits from power heads. I'm assuming it's much safer than CLR.

This is my recommendation.
1. Keep the tank fishless for about 2-3 more months.
2. Run a fresh batch of carbon every week to remove any nasties that might be hanging around.
2.5 Upgrade your skimmer. If money is short get the Red Sea Prizm. They are only about $65.00 mail order.
3. Add about 20 more pounds of high quality live rock to the tank.
4. After the live rock has been in for a couple of weeks (or when nitrates and nitrites are detectable), add some snails for algae control if needed.
5. About a month after the new live rock has been in start adding fish slowly. Max of 2 at a time...spaced at least 2 weeks apart.

And as Horge recommended, slowly increase your specific gravity to at least 1.023-1.025. Next advice is buy your fish from places that quarantine, and make sure you take your time when acclimating the new fish.

I hope some or all of these things might help make the tank a success. Take your time with it. Let the filtration catch up to the bioload. Make a few improvements and you will be on your way

HTH-
Brooke

[fliberdygibits]

I think I do a decent job acclimating fish, but everything else you list makes me realize that I could slow down and "adjust" how I do a few things. I will start on your recommendations right away. Out of curiosity, is there a way to test for the presence of unexpected chemicals like the ingredients in CLR? Would you just have to go to a lab?

Thanks all for the info!

[Doug1]

CLR is prolly a muriatic acid based compound, tho I cant remember off hand what else is in it. I have used muriatic(hydrochloric) acid for decalciifying tank as well as recharging Tap Water Purifiers. Its possible they use someother nasty thing in CLR that might be hanging around. You might pickup a PolyFilter pad and run that in one of the Millenium filters. What hydromeer are you using to measure SG, you might have that checked with refractometer and on of the stores. The swing arm type can be off by a lot at times, if its reading low and tou are at the low range of acceptable that may contribute over time Defiantly run the carbon, good luck, figuring out the mystery

[fliberdygibits]

The people we got this tank from were selling it cause their son "put something in it that killed the fish". They disassembled it and had it in storage for a month or so before we bought it and it was a 2 months before we set it up. Is it possible that whatever he put in it (we still don't know) is still in there in trace amounts? Could it still be leaching out into the water? I realize without knowing what it is it's hard to say, I just don't know if ANYONE has ever had ANYTHING stay in a tank for this long after washing and rinsing and being filled and emptied several times. I mean, since the day I started this tank with fish in it, I have lost fish. Even snails and crabs have died in water that looked clean enough to drink according to the normal saltwater tests. Is it possible that the tank itself is just a gonner?

Thanks again everyone

[Spanky]

Just some random thoughts on this.

What are you using for test kits?
What are you feeding?
What buffer are you using?
The way you're describing the fishes actions, it sounds like ammonia/nitrite burn, Ph shock, or Brook to me.

I use CLR/muriatic acid/vinegar, what ever's handy and have not had a problem with any of it.

Jerel

[Green Chromis]

Hi Fliberdygbits, IMO I would take your water to someone who could check your water with a refractometer.] It seems that whatever the previous owner put in the tank is still in it, you might have to start over with a new tank if it is still leaching out what ever they spilled in it. Good luck.

[fliberdygibits]

..... and a phone conversation with Woody at Seahorse I am thinking more and more that the tank itself is at fault. I am setting up a little quarantine tank that I am going to move the LR and remaining critters to until we can replace the tank in a few days.

Thanks everyone for the input.