undergravel filter

[Nitrowing]

I recently joined The reef tank, and have been reading, reading, and reading. This is going to be my first reef tank. I have aquired a free 40 gallon aquarium. In reading one book, Barron's New Saltwater Aquarium Handbook, it veritably says you have to have an undergravel filter. In my readings here I have yet to hear of one mentioned. Do I really need/want one? Also I have a ten gallon tank I was going to use as a sump. Is there a formula or recommendation on sump to display tank ratio? Thanks in advance for insights.
P.S. I have Tullock's book on reef aquariums on its way, it seems to be mentioned repeatedly here. Am looking to aquire Fenner's conscientous aquarist next.

[Spanky]

Greetings Oh Nitrowing.

In a nut shell, a UG will cycle your tank wastes faster than the final phase good bacteria can keep up. Nope, don't use it. Or bio-wheels, canister filters, etc.

I believe the general rule for sump/tank ratios is - water proof the basement, use this for your sump - and it still might not be big enough for some people.

All kidding aside, you should be just fine with a 10gal sump. It won't give you a lot of room for equipment though.

HTH
Jerel

[Doug1]

Jerel is right, UGF are efficient at supporting the bacteria responsible for reducing ammonia to nitrite the nitrate, but sinse they are composed of fairly coarse particals they trap debris and are not as infauna friendly as the finer grain substrates, so you may see copepod and bristleworm scavengers but the are a myriad of other species down to the bacteria level that contribute to the cleanup proccess. These other organisms flourish in finer sand beds, which also keeps the gross detritus on top rather than hidden in the cracks.
The other problem is the wide spacing in the particles allows oxygenated water to permeate the substrate which is great for the bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrate but precludes the formation on anoxic(low O2) zones needed by the bacteria that convert nitrate back into Nitrogen gas and utilize the carbon. also sulfer reducing species as I recall work mostly in anoxic zones. One of the common things you might hear from an LFS pushing UGF is that deep sand beds are dangerous because they develop Hydrogen Sulfide pockets. Well yes they do and they are supposed to. Its yet another cycle proccess that occurs in a reef environment. The foundation of a good sand bed is grain size and depth, along with as wide a variety of detrivores and infauna. Avoid sand sifting stars,burrowing fish, and never stir the sand bed up. Its hard on the micro fauna and you may disrupt a hydrogen sulfide pocket(thats )
As far as sumps there is no magic formula, at the minimum big enough to hold all your equipment but on the upper end the more the better, I use a 55 on my 75

Here is what you need to have for a reef tank:
- Lots of live rock 1-2 pounds per gallon
-lots of light 3-5 watts per gallon( the higher end being the better)
-Lots of water movement. Main pump 10X the aquarium volume and the addition of multiple powerheads.
- A efficient protien skimmer.
- A Deep Sand Bed 4-6 inches min.
- A really good reference book
What you don't need:
- Bad and uneducated opinions
- Local fish store advice ( this is general as some local fish stores are Ok but generaly they still looking to sell you something it all about the $$$ to them sometimes)
-The ability to rush. This is reall really really not good.
- a UGF this is a dated and old technology ad as explained above not for reef tanks anyone that suggest a UGF knows nothing and should not be giving advice.
hope this helps

[Nitrowing]

Thanks for the tips! I looked at the publish date on the afore mentioned book. It was 1991. I guess everything, but me, has changed in the last ten years The book was pretty generic anyway. I am still in the planing and assembly stage, I think I am going to go with a 20 gallon sump now. Thanks again!
Another Doug

[Doug1]

FWIW, I like the Barrons "Marine Reef Aquarium Handbook" by Robt Goldstein, its cheap and gives a good explanation of all the hardware out there without pushing an agenda.
Also has a reasonably decent section on coral Genara in general, if you run across it for about $10 definatly worth the price
I also recommend Eric Bornemans new "Aquarium Corals, it is reasonable and provides a good overview of corals and such

[DennisW]

Just remember. Mr Mike's opinion is just another opinion and usually, anyone that tells you that there is only one way to do something, well, their opinion should be discounted immediatly!

[Alice]

Hi;

True, there are about as many ways to set up a successful reef tank as there are reefers. So much depends on the animals that you will keep. Clams and SPS are some of the more light loving animals and 5 watts per gallon for them won't cut it. I've got 8 watts per on my 55 and wouldn't try clams due to the depth of the tank. So much is dependant on variables.

With a 4-6 inch sandbed you should be able to cut down a little on the rock, too, as the sandbed will be able to handle a lot of the bioload when it has matured. Using one pound of rock per gallon with a DSB should be plenty and leave you a little more room for corals Just be patient on adding animals to the tank, once you get it set up, cycled and add your clean up crew it's best to give the tank time to mature before adding much in the way of critters. Many advocate 6 months but it's hard to be that patient...give it a couple months anyway and your tank will be all the better for it.

It's time to drag out that old axiom again......Nothing good ever happens fast in a reeftank, only the bad.

~Alice

[MontanaRocknReefer]

Hi there!! OK here goes! My wife(PatTheAttack on this board)has a 20 gallon mini-reef aquarium with everything(just about)that you are not suppose to have for a reef.
She has a hang-on filter w/carbon,30lbs of live rock, 4" of CC with underground filter system and her tank does great. She has never had a algae problem of any sort and she does take care of her tank. She has a clownfish, firefish and a bi-colored blenny. She has some mushrooms and green star polyps and has a l8" l5ww bulb for lighting.
Her tank has been this way for 15 months so I guess time will tell. Johnny

I disagree with dennis saying my opinion is be discounted immediatly. I am not stating any opions, but a general rule of thumb. Look at any nice reef tank and what you will notice is the owner is well educated and generally knows alot about reefs. From a newbie stand point you have to get some guide lines. I have never scene a healthy mix SPS LPS and softy tank using a UGF and If i did come across one I would have to question its maintance demands and its water chemistry. To a newbie these things can be somewhat complex and dificult to achieve. I found it better to steer someone to a more natural reef setup and to allow them to research what animals they want and let the animals be a guidline for the equipment they need.

[Alice]

Hmmm...I don't know if Dennis truly meant that your opinion should be discounted immediately. I think he was maybe trying to point out, as you did Mr.Mike, that there are people, especially LFS, that will tell you it's their way or no way.

It is hard to give advice to newcomers to the hobby as they need to have guidelines but they also need to be aware that within those guidelines there are many variations to tailor the system to the needs of the type of animals they want to keep in their tanks. It's part of what makes this hobby so challenging, satisfying, hair-pullingly frustrating and fun!

Ideally, the members of this board can help guide newcomers to appropriate choices, avoid pitfalls and figure out how to tailor their systems. That's why this board was created and the staff of this board is dedicated to providing a learning environment free of flaming and accusations. All the information and advice in the world won't be accessed if the person who needs help doesn't feel as if they can ask for help without recrimination.

Please forgive this commercial interruption and carry on with the discussion!

~Alice

[Nitrowing]

I appreciate all the advice and opinions. I am stumbling over a couple of the acronyms. e.g. fds, lds, lsd! You mention that a deep sand bed is prudent. Is that in both the display and sump tank? Are both tanks to be seeded? The kind of tank I would like is an indo-pacific reef type with some fish, a couple of anemones, and some little critters that poke out of nooks and crannies every now and then. We'll see what happens though. With my luck I will be a proffessional algae farmer, with the super ability of killing the most hardy of fish in less than 48 hours! Thanks again.

Another Doug

[Doug1]

Mr Mike I think that carry over is from the thread that involves VHO only lasting 3-4 months. As a long time VHO user I have to take exception to that, otherwise the advice you have given is sound.
Please lets all agree to fight nice, I am too tired and cranky to moderate

Doug you have actually always gvien good advice too but if you revert back to the vho post you will see BillE makes a statement for changing VHO bulbs at the 9-12 month point. Then states that on multiple bulb setups you change bulbs ever 3-4monthes. I have seen numerous topics regarding light and as a general rule i change my vho's ever 4 monthes. I have 4 Vho and it can get expensive, but I do this to make sure light intensity is at peak at all times in my tank. I like consistancy and so do my tanks. I dont mean to be arguementative, but as a hobbyist with a knowledge of reef aquariums you should now that everything stated in my post is sound advice to newbies. When starting off in the hobby you should be adviced to keep a reef and this advice is general as you will learn and make your own ideas fit to your needs. I thank doug1 for all his advice as many of the 1100+ members also do, but I also knwo that with 1100+ members we all draw from our experiences to inform new members correctly. My advice is not opinion, but rather learned from trial and error. Telling a newbie to go with halides instead of vho is well baised and based that once he is in the hobby he will have a light system he can use on future tanks. Metal halides have more light output and to meet halide output you need to increase the amount of bulbs used in a vho system. I think that your reef with its 4 vho lights is ideal, but I think even you have debated upgrading to Metal halides at sometime. So with that isnt it our obligation to advice newbies correctly and cost effectively. I mean it is mean for us to say " yeah hey 4 110w ice caps are great and youll shell out 400 bucks or so and love it, but in a years time when you get really good and want to move up to more complex animals and maybe a bigger tank you'll need to shell out another 500 bucks on a metal halide system" I would advice anyone to spend 900 bucks, but rather tell them to spend only 500 and need no further upgrades. If you think I am wrong so be it, but not everyone wants to spend more and more on equipment.I thank you doug1 for pointing this lighting debate in a UGF discussion as it really is not relivant or appropriate even for moderator.

[Alice]

Mike, just a comment. Not everyone who is really good at reefing feels the need to have MH. Some people don't care for SPS or clams and actually prefer soft corals. I guess it's all relative.