New Reef Tank (first one)

[mapster]

First posting

Im starting up a new reef tank (first one) and have a few questions, but first here's the plan:

120 gallon tank
150#lbs of live rock
2 Bak Pak IIR skimmers
2 Maxi Jet 1200 Powereheads (and maybe 1 smaller one) for water movement.
1 250W Ebo Jager heater
4 - 48" VHO Fluorescent's (440W's total) + 1 NO Fluorescent

For fish Im thinking:

1 Flame Angel
1 (or 2) Clarkii's Clown
1 (or 2) B&W Bannerfish
1 Copperband Butterfly & eventually
1 Powder Blue Tang

I would also like a mix of hard & soft corals, mushrooms, feather dusters, polyps and an anemone or two.

My Questions:

1. Will the live rock and the 2 skimmers give me enough filtration? I have a decent power filter, should I use it?
2. Enough water movement?
3. Enough heat?
4. Enough light?
5. Too many fish?
6. Are Hard corals impossible to keep?
7. Is ordering livestock from the internet a good or bad idea? My LFS does not carry most of the fish/inverts I want. I've found a few good websites, but would like to hear from some people who tried this.
8. Is the Copperband going to be OK in the reef tank or will he pick at my corals?

Thanks in advance for your help, I hope I wasn't to long winded.

[scotty]

I don't know much about salt tanks yet but my first comment would be to have two heaters rather than one with a tank that large...

[MikeP]

Mapster, Nice to have another Mass resident on the board. Sounds like a nice system. I am not an expert like everyone else so I really won't reccomend anything concerning your setup.
Welcome aboard.

[MikeP]

Mapster, you may want to check this place out for Live rock, I actually just found it on line looking through the yellow pages. They also have a website.Coral Reef Aquarium in Seekonk, Ma off rte 6. They will sell
Premium Fiji Live Rock - $5.99 lb, 5.49 over 25 lbs, 4.99 over 50 lbs, 4.49 over 75 lbs,

3.99 100 lbs + Florida best price I found around the area. I may stop in there this weekend I will let you know how it is. The other place I mainly go to is the Hidden Reef Aquarium in Fall River(I believe)Very friendly people, some nice tanks I tank for LR and 2 big ones for Coral and Inverts. Limited on Dry goods but worth a trip.
There is one place on the cape I forget the name I think it is Falmouth Pet Center,very nice stock

[mapster]

Thanks for the help. I've been looking around for a good fish store. Those live rock prices sound good. Ill definitely be checking that place out this weekend. Im heading out to Framingham today. A place called Tropic Isle Aquarium. I hope its good.

Thank again for the help (my first name is Mike and my last initial is P also, .

[mapster]

Your probably right, Scotty. The heaters will be inside the tank so I wanted to cut down on the clutter. Something Ill have to think about. Thanks

[semajftw]

I'm relatively inexperienced also, but i'm gonna give some suggestions anyway. First off you dont have a sump listed - IMO you will be sorry and want one later - I always read threads on how someone wants to add a sump to there tank. Did you think about a deep sand bed -- do a search on it - IMO that is the way to go to finish the Nitrogen cycle. Also, your lighting seems a little low if you want hard corals eventually - they are not impossible but you need to wait and gain experience through the more hardier corals first. You may want to look into MH lighting as this seems to be the way most people go with lighting IMO. Also, 2 smaller heaters would be better than one. I'm not sure about the rest of your questions so i'll let the more experienced reefers answer the rest.

James

[beach bum]

Here are a few things I would do with that system.

1. Add a sump! If the tank is acryllic, I would have it drilled, if not look into the different models of hang on overflows and see if you like any.

2. Add a sump! You were thinking about only one heater to cut down clutter, but two is wiser and can always be placed in the sump.

3. Circulation is a toss-up. Different corals appreciate different and random levels of flow. I don't think 2 MJ1200's are enough personally. If you add a SUMP that will provide circulation via the water return.

4. Don't buy two BakPaks. For that much money you should invest in something like a Euroreef skimmer. MUCH more efficient (and probably quieter) than the BP's, and it is hidden in the SUMP, so you don't have to look at them sticking up from behind your tank.

5. Your lighting might be a bit shy for keeping SPS, but I don't have any experience with those. It is definitely risky with anemones, but people do it. My one anemone has flourished so far under MH, when before it was struggling under PC, only I didn't know it until I upgraded the lighting.

6. The copperband buttefly is a very delicate and hard to keep fish. Think twice before buying one since they are hard to keep fed - and will require a lot of care from you in this area, you won't be able to just drop in any frozen/prepared foods and expect them to eat it. Also they can be stressed by more aggressive fish (Amphiprion Clarkii for example), and other types of butterflies (ie- bannerfish).

7. Your tank will be awesome eventually, but one of the things that requires experience is caring for creatures that have very different requirements all in one tank. Anemones, hardy fish, delicate fish, soft corals, stony corals ---they all require different things to maintain vitality, so expect to spend alot of time caring for each different species until you learn to fulfill their needs.

A BIG WELCOME to TRT, and keep posting all your questions! I would be interested in tank dimensions if you could post those. Also, the sponsors of this website are all excellent online vendors to choose from.

Good luck! HTH,
Chris

[Brooke]

Originally posted by mapster

Im starting up a new reef tank (first one) and have a few questions, but first here's the plan:

120 gallon tank
150#lbs of live rock
2 Bak Pak IIR skimmers
2 Maxi Jet 1200 Powereheads (and maybe 1 smaller one) for water movement.
1 250W Ebo Jager heater
4 - 48" VHO Fluorescent's (440W's total) + 1 NO Fluorescent

plan sounds good. I would definately have the tank drilled with two corner overflows with durso standpipe and have a sump of at least 30g. Nix the 2 bakpaks and at the very least get a red sea berlin skimmer. Definately get 2 heaters. 2 150 watters is better than 1 250. Depending on your climate, you could even go as much as 2- 250's. You will probably need 1-2 smaller maxi's in the corners, or in the back. The 1200's are pretty powerful and not all corals appreciate the blast. Lighting sounds similar to our 100g. You'll be able to keep a variety of softies and lps.

For fish Im thinking:

1 Flame Angel
1 (or 2) Clarkii's Clown
1 (or 2) B&W Bannerfish
1 Copperband Butterfly & eventually
1 Powder Blue Tang

the bannerfish get fairly large, but they are very cool. I would not put a copperband in the reef. They are best left to experienced aquarists. The powder blue is also a hard to keep tang. I would recommend a purple, hippo, or yellow for a first tang. The angel might nip at some corals or sponges in the tank, but many people keep centropyge angels in their reefs.

I would also like a mix of hard & soft corals, mushrooms, feather dusters, polyps and an anemone or two.
please read the archives for mixed reviews on keeping anemone's. The tank really needs to be planned around their needs, and VHO's are not going to support their lighting needs. They also need a mature tank. Your other coral selections sound just fine.

My Questions:

1. Will the live rock and the 2 skimmers give me enough filtration? yes I have a decent power filter, should I use it? no
2. Enough water movement? plan on 2 more powerheads
3. Enough heat? 2 heaters as mentioned above
4. Enough light? sure, for a dominant softie tank
5. Too many fish? not really. the one inch of mature fish per 5 gallons of water is a pretty good standard. You have about 24 inches of fish. angel is 3", 2 clowns 4-6", 7-10" for a tang (depending on the kind you get), 2 bannerfish are about 6" each. So conservatively you have 26" of adult fish selected. So..yep...that's about max
6. Are Hard corals impossible to keep? some are, some aren't. ones to stay away from, IMO, are goniopora and elegance. there are many that are hardy and suitable for VHO lighting.
7. Is ordering livestock from the internet a good or bad idea? My LFS does not carry most of the fish/inverts I want. I've found a few good websites, but would like to hear from some people who tried this. check out our sponsors. They are the best around. It is safe, you just need to know who you are buying from.
8. Is the Copperband going to be OK in the reef tank or will he pick at my corals? never kept one, but Scott Michael's book says should be ok with softies and sps, but might nip at lps corals. But again, I would advice against them, due to their being a more difficult to keep fish

Definately check out the books we recommend here: http://www.thereeftank.com/books Scott Michael's fish books, Bob Fenner's Conscientious book, and Eric Borneman's Aquarium Corals should be in everyone's library.

HTH-
Brooke
(not an expert...and learning something new everyday)

[lime]

Don't forget your Hospital tank just in case. Putting sick fish in a very nice tank means disaster for the inhabitants. Your plans sounds good, I am not an expert and just a begginer too so go for it.

[Alice]

Welcome to The Reef Tank

Sounds like your planning is well under way. Reading and research are key. Check the archives and the "getting started" pages for tips and reading material.

What type of fish do you mean by Bannerfish? Heniochas? (spelling!) Moorish Idol?

FWIW, Copperbands also tend to pick on featherdusters and other worms; I noticed you mentioned that you wanted some.

Alice

[FishDaddy]

Hey Mapster,

Good to have you with us. Sounds like an exciting and challenging project. You tank size will give you lots of options for the future, but please remember, this is a long, slow process and much patience is required. Fish should be added slowly, one at a time, with a long period between additions. I usually recommend 2-3 months after startup to add the first fish; another
2-3 months to begin adding corals. (few of us can resist the temptation but it is the best plan, IMHO) The LR/LS setup takes a while to ramp up to be able to handle even modest bioloads but going slow at the beginning will reap long term rewards.

You didn't mention substrate. A Deep Sand Bed should be considered as an additional biofilter and haven for sand bed invertebrates. Please read:
http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm
http://www.reefkeepers.org/faq/cache/33.html

Another thing not mentioned is your clean up crew of invertebrates. After the tank is fully cycled, a good mix of snails: Nassarius; Trochus; Ceriths; Margaritas; are essential as detritus and algae eaters.

Scott Michael's fish books, Bob Fenner's Conscientious book, and Eric Borneman's Aquarium Corals should be in everyone's library.

I would encourage to get these three books and especially, thoroughly read Fenner's book before buying anything.

Again, welcome to TRT!
Dick

[Doug1]

welcome to TheReefTank most of your questions have been answered pretty well but a few point I would like to hit on
Sump!!!!!!!!!!!!! do it now, have the tank drilled or invest in a high flow Life Reef overflow box.m You will want the surface skimming effect and a sump is a good place to hide the heaters( use 2x250 watt) and is necessary for a decent Skimmer. Dont bother with 2 Bakpaks, get a serious skimmer from the start, suggestions are one of the Aqua C EV series or one of the Beckett type HSA
(hi speed areator), the Life Reef skimmer is highly rated also, but my point is dont spend $200 + on something you will regret later. A good skimmer is one of the handiest tools a new reefer can have, esp if .you start with a 120. The setup cost to do it right is high but screw ups cost way more. The other benefit of a sump is you will use a decent sized return pump(say mag 12 (1200gph) and that will boost circulation alot. Corals come from a very active environment, even the soft or large polyp corals like a lot of water flow as long as its not blasting right at them.
Lighting is another personal choice issue, but having 4x110 watt VHO on my 75 I suggest you start with that for the 1st 6 months while tank cycles but
plan on adding Metal Halide lighting at some point down the road. 2x175 on a 120 g tank is adequate for soft and LPS corals, Shop carefully and 250 0r 400 watt Iwasaki along with the VHO
will support most anything you want to keep, the cost is not that much more(another great reefing myth)
Personally I think the fish load you listed(taking into account the caveats listed is fine in a 120 fish only, but coral tanks and display fish, esp bigger ones are counter productive. Fish in a reef should be chosen for eco niche, ie scavengers(gobies,blennies, etc) or grazers, i.e. tangs
Boittom line I suggest starting the tank, with a sump and good skimmer, after the cycle and algae blooms die off, add a few easy corals and a couple fish to make it interesting, wait 6 months and then start stocking corals. While you are waiting research, research research, plan the tank around the corals you want to keep, HTH, have fun and enjoy