Cycling a new system

[UFGator]

Hi folks. This is my first post to this board. I am starting up a new system. 75g hex with 12" canopy, 250w MH and 2x55w PC lighting, fan, sump, seaclone venturi protein skimmer, live sand bottom, live rock and fish. Here is my plan for cycling. I would appreciate any comments and/or answers to my questions.

1. I live on the ocean so I plan on using water from the ocean. I hope it is clean enough. I'm going to go out a couple of miles to get it.
2. I plan on buying argonite sand from the LPS and seeding it with live sand from the LPS.
Q1. Some articles I have read say you put the water in first and then the sand. Is this correct. Seems to me like I should put the sand in first (with some SW to keep it live) and then the water. When I was a kid doing FW tanks I would put a plate down and pour the water on the plate.
Q2. Now I am assuming I DO NOT run the pump until everthing is setttled? Even if I wanted to run the pump since you don't totally fill the tank up with water (because live rock will be coming)how would water ever get into the overflow... Seems to me like you just let things settle for a couple of days and then add your live rock (i.e. do not run a pump)...
3. I have a friend who is in the aquaculture business about a mile away and I can get live rock from him directly from the ocean (no curing necessary?). I will then put the live rock directly in the tank.
Q3. I believe at this point I would run the pump. What about the protein skimmer? When do you start running that?
Q4. Do I run my PC lights at this point, My MHs? No lights at all?
4. I will then let the tank cycle watching for the amonia-nitrite-nitrate spikes to occur.
Q5. When do I add my clean-up crew? After the Amonia spike? Nitrate spike? or right after the tank is setup?
5. I will then slowly add fish. I plan on using only tank raised fish thereby having little/no impact on the environment. Mostly clowns, blennies, basslet, jawfish etc.
Q6. How many inches of fish would you think this system could hold and maintain a low nitrate level?
6. After things have stabalized for some time I plan on adding a tank raised anemone (hence the MH lighting).

I apologize for the long post, but you only get to setup your tank once (hopefully) and I plan on doing it properly! Thank you in advance for any help you can offer.
null

[Spanky]

1) Don't really need to, just catch an inlet at high tide with a on shore wind. It will be low on buffer, so add a good buffer. We use SuperBuffer.

2)Either way will work. Fill the tank up and run the pumps (live sand). You can take water out later when you add the rock. Running the pumps will actually help it to clear up.

3)I skim from the get go.

4) lights and all for me. Again - live rock.

5) I gradually start adding immediately. Tougher ones in the beginning, etc.

6) Can't go by the inches rule. Metabolism and bio-load play a bigger role and every system is different. Also depends on what you have filtering, circulation, bacteria, etc.

Try a native condy first, they are good indicators for future anemones.

HTH and Good Morning
Jerel

[UFGator]

Wow that was a quick! I am assuming that with the pump running and all the sand in the water that the pump will not be "harmed" by the sand running through it? And the skimmer will also not be harmed? Thanks again for you answers. That is very helpful!

[Spanky]

Aim the pumps more at the surface, that way they don't keep the sand stirred up.
Jerel

[horge]

Hey UFGator,
elcome to TheReefTank


Q1. Some articles I have read say you put the water in first and then the sand. Is this correct. Seems to me like I should put the sand in first (with some SW to keep it live) and then the water. When I was a kid doing FW tanks I would put a plate down and pour the water on the plate.

Either way, you will wind up with some clouding, which settles down eventually. I know some people do water first, then sand --introdcing the sand down a clean length of wide-bore pipe, to somewhat contain the clouding within the pipe-length. I use a glass plate myself.

Q2. Now I am assuming I DO NOT run the pump until everthing is setttled? Even if I wanted to run the pump since you don't totally fill the tank up with water (because live rock will be coming)how would water ever get into the overflow... Seems to me like you just let things settle for a couple of days and then add your live rock (i.e. do not run a pump)...

Waste of time to let everything settle w/o a pump, then churn it all up again when you do switch the sucker on. You can take the water displaced by the LR and stre it for a future water change. I'd fill and circulate. Or just move the water around with a simple powerhead ...or even an airlift.

3. I have a friend who is in the aquaculture business about a mile away and I can get live rock from him directly from the ocean (no curing necessary?). I will then put the live rock directly in the tank.

No, it's still best to cure. Lots of stuff on that rock has been living off the planktonic bounty of the sea, --which your tank doesn't have, and they may die-off in spectacular fashion any place else. better they die in a curing bucket or tub, than in your tank.

Q3. I believe at this point I would run the pump. What about the protein skimmer? When do you start running that?

I'd run it wherever the rock is curing, just to prevent a total crash should the die-off be substantial.

Q4. Do I run my PC lights at this point, My MHs? No lights at all?

On the LR? Probably just the PC's, if at all. Die-off produces nutrient spikes (ammonia, nitite, nitrate...) that unwanted algae can bloom off of, if you provide them light --though if you see desirble hitchhiker creatures that need light --like desirable algae, then low-medium light is advisable during curing.

4. I will then let the tank cycle watching for the amonia-nitrite-nitrate spikes to occur.

Supposing your LR looks cured, and you introduce it to your tank, then yes, you watch out for another mini-cycle, and if there is, wait for it to settle down.

Q5. When do I add my clean-up crew? After the Amonia spike? Nitrate spike? or right after the tank is setup?

If you cured your LR properly, there will be no spike in the tank. In case there still is, it's best to let the tank stabilize before adding anything. The exception would probably be macroalgae --they can go in ESPECIALLY during a spike, if there is some light available.

5. I will then slowly add fish. I plan on using only tank raised fish thereby having little/no impact on the environment. Mostly clowns, blennies, basslet, jawfish etc.

Sure

Q6. How many inches of fish would you think this system could hold and maintain a low nitrate level?

Tough question, as there are territoriality issues as well to consider. "Inches of fish" can be very misleading, as individual size and body shape vary. Also depends how many other wste-producing and waste-consuming critters you have in there, aside from fish.

6. After things have stabalized for some time I plan on adding a tank raised anemone (hence the MH lighting).

Whuffo? Tank-raised clowns to nest in?
Lots of other alternative hosts. If you really want an anemone, be prepared to understand where they come from. Host anemones are found in mud, or rubble, or hardbottom, and eat all manner of tidbits from fish feces all the way to fish parts. This is on top of the nutrition derived from photosynthetic zooxanthellae. So good light, and a mature tank, are best for anemones.

Understand Murphy's Rule of anemone keeping:
They never settle where you want them to, and it's usually where you can't even SEE the suckers. If you can live with that (and protect the anemone from its own preferences --which can include powerhead inlets), and learn well their requirements... then you can give it a try.

They can be difficult critters to keep, for many reefers of all levels of experience.

Good luck, and I hope others put in their two cents worth


horge

[horge]

I really need to type faster...

[UFGator]

Thanks Horge! Seems to be a little bit of conflict between your response and Jerel's, but I guess I can sort that out... Couple of more questions:
1. Why can't I cycle my tank with the LR and let it cure in the tank since I believe that little curing will be necessary?
2. I am intrigued by your response that there are other "hosts" for my clownfish-to-be. What are my options?

Thanks! You guys are great!
Joel

[FishDaddy]

Hi UFGator,

Good to have you with us!
No real conflicts between what Jerel and Horge have said. There are many different ways of doing things with a reef and either is fine.

1. Why can't I cycle my tank with the LR and let it cure in the tank since I believe that little curing will be necessary?
You certainly can cycle the tank with LR, in fact, that is what I would recommend. Just watch your Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates. I've cycled both my tanks that way.
2. I am intrigued by your response that there are other "hosts" for my clownfish-to-be. What are my options?
Clownfish do not need the protection from predators in an aquarium as provided by the host anenome in the wild. Clowns will host with almost anything! My Ocellaris first took up with an oyster shell cluster before I had corals; then moved to the Mushrooms when I added them; then took up with my Frogspawn when it was introduced. They now divide their time between the Frogspawn and Ricordea mushrooms!
Even if you do decide to get an anenome, I'd wait for a good long while until the tank is fully stabilized, many months down the road. Even after a tank is fully cycled, the tank will go through several algae blooms and fluctuations in water quality until the system is fully stabilized. This may take up to a year.
Please visit Joaco's Anenome page; it will give you much information about these hard to keep critters: http://www.wyx.com/iheo/tank/anemones.htm
Joyce Wilkerson's book, Clownfishes and Their Host Anenomes is an excellent and comprehensive reference that anyone who keeps either should have.
I would also highly recommend getting The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner and/or John Tullock's Natural Reef Aquariums before starting the system up. None of these books are very expensive but will provide valuable info not only for setup but excellent future reference material.

It is important to keep good water circulation, with surface agitation, from the beginning, especially with hex tanks with their smaller surface area. Things can die rather quickly without the vital gas/oxygen exchange. Though you are going to use NSW for your saltwater, you will still need very good source water for replacement of evaporation. Water purified by Reverse Osmosis/Deionization is best. Tap water contains many minerals, Phosphates, etc.

I would go with a 6" sandbed as you don't have as much sand bed area with a hex as you would with a rectangular tank.
Here are some excellent references for LR/LS: http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm http://www.reefkeepers.org/faq/cache/33.html

I would recommend waiting until you are sure the tank is fully cycled before adding clean up critters. they are particularly sensitive to fluctuations in water quality and also need to be slowly acclimated to your tank water. Personally, I would go for a good variety of snails and avoid hermit crabs. I do keep 2 or 3 Scarlet Reef Hermits in my tanks for variety but have not had good experience with Blue Legs. Here is a good article about snails and hermits as clean up crew: http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/li...=&RecordNo=166

Again, welcome to TRT, but there's just one thing: Go Vols!!!
Dick

[ 08-25-2001: Message edited by: FishDaddy ]

[Spanky]

Seems to be a little bit of conflict between your response and Jerel's,

He's more awake than I am this morning. Well, it's morning for me and night for him. If you have a choice, go with Jorge

[UFGator]

Thanks Dick.
I will cycle with LR.
I actually just finished Joyce Wilkerson's book Clownfishes. I will pick up the other books you mentioned.
I have an RO system so I think I should be good for evaporation and water changes. I am thinking of adding a DI system to that. I have read the article on SBs in reefkeepers. I'll check out the one in rshimek. I find these articles helpful, but sometimes they don't answer the specifics (that's where you guys come in .
I never thought about a 6" sandbed. I was going to go with a 3"er. I'll take your advice on that. I was concerned with creating "dead" pockets with a bed that deep.
I'll wait for the tank to cycle before adding cleanup critters. I have read several articles that agree with you that hermits tend to be aggressive (eating snails and all). I'll check out the article you referenced.
I appreciate the help. You guys are OUTSTANDING(even if your taste in Universities is sub-par .

Joel

[FishDaddy]

Hey Joel,
You're quite welcome! Sounds like you're off to a good start. Reading and patience are the backbones of this hobby.
BTW, what part of Fla are you in? TRT has a pretty strong representation in the Sunshine State. Just as long as UT and UF don't start NCAA Reefing Teams we'll be alright!
Dick

[dark horge]

Good morning (evening for you all)

Just three reasons I don't like curing raw LR in the tank are:

1) because of unwanted hitchhikers. Though I did not mention it, curing in a bucket gives you a chance to observe for them. LR is shipped moist, and you really need to let it settle back into a submerged state for all its passengers to show themselves.

2) in the event of massive fouling, it is easier if need be to flush (with new water) a curing tub, than a tank with fine sand.

3) in the event of massive fouling, you're better off with a curing tub that can sit out in the garage, than an indoor tank likely making its presence known to every working nostril in the vicinity.

Of course, you could get lucky and not go through ANY die-off, nor take in unwanted hitchhikers, but then that really depends on the sort of LR you get.


hth,
horge

[Spanky]

See, you have to watch me. I've never shipped LR or taken it out of the water.

I did accidentally leave one piece out over night one time. Put it back in the tank the next morning - WOW! I didn't know anything could smell that bad. LOL

Good Morning
Jerel

[UFGator]

Hi Dick,
I'm from Tarpon Springs (near Tampa).

Horge,
I do agree with you that letting normail live rock cure in a tank could be hazardous, but since my rock is really coming right off the boat I think my die-off will be minimal. Of course I could have several unwanted "guests"...

Thanks again for all your help guys. This really does seem like an excellent and helpful resource!

Joel

[Alice]

WOW! I didn't know anything could smell that bad. LOL

Gee Jerel; you've been missing out on all the fun

Seems like when I started my tank I didn't see much of anyone posting about curing rock in tubs. In tank was cure d'jour, lol.

Knowing what I do now, I was lucky. Very good batch of live rock, hardly any die-off and full of polyps. I haven't seen such good rock come through since, although its still plenty purple and has lots of life on it. (I wonder if Woody did something to make Walt mad? ) We have had some rock come through that was so bad, it got cured in tubs...outside. An absolutely amazingly bad smell and my husband would have killed me if our living room had smelled like that! LOL!

~Alice