phosphate reduction, and....erythromycin?

[ivet]

as my alge problem continues, i was wondering what chemical or enzyme is in marine phosphate reduction solutions. i may already have what i need...and also, i found this article and was wondering if this is ok to try since i have nothing but rock:

"It turns out that cyanobacteria is hypersensitive to erythromycin. I use small amounts of that antibiotic to eradicate cyanobacteria when it gets distracting. The method I use is to vacuum out as much of the algae as I can before introducing 250mg. per 25 gallons of erythromycin. Any protein skimmers will need to have their air turned almost off since they will overflow immediately and profusely from the antibiotic. Carbon should be temporarily removed as it adsorbs the antibiotic. Usually within 48 hours virtually all of the cyanobacteria will be dead. This does not harm any fish, invertebrates, or other algae. At this small dosage nitrifying bacteria will not be harmed, though they are at much higher doses."

[horge]

Hi ivet,

I don't know what are in the various commercial products either I'm under the impression that most are either specific-ion-exchange media (which can then be removed from the tank along with the trapped phosphate), or broadcast 'binders' --like kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide)-- which lock down phosphate but remain in tank.

Use of erythromycin to curb cyanobacteria is a tricky thing. Beneficial nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria are possibly put at risk when you dose the tank. We DON'T know for a fact that they are put at significant risk, but theoretically the risk is there.

Just determining/quantifying the effect on the beneficial bacteria can prove very difficult.

horge
The Monkey Boy From Mars

[Alice]

First the unknown universe and now Mars; feeling the urge to travel, Horge?

~Alice

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Reefkeeping is my life; I can't afford a hobby too!

[Alice]

ivet;

I wouldn't use the eurythromyican (I never can spell that right). I'm trying to remember what else had been said about your tank, but if it's cycled, syphon as much as you can out while doing water changes, increase the circulation and keep the lights out for two or three days. If it hasn't cycled, go easy on the water changes but still get as much of the stuff out as you can.

~Alice

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Reefkeeping is my life; I can't afford a hobby too!

[FishDaddy]

Ivet,
I wouldn't use the Erythromycin either. It is a broad spectrum antibiotic and I wouldn't risk your beneficial bacteria.
Cyanobacter is messy, ugly and a pain but it is a phase that many new tanks go through and will pass with good husbandry.
One important thing about circulation: make sure you have good flow over the substrate. It is an axiom that "Cyano doesn't like current". Powerheads at the bottom blowing over the sand will really help.
Dripping Kalkwasser for all topoff water will also help bind the phosphates for export via the skimmer.
It is a slow process but can be overcome without introducing "stuff" into the tank.
Dick

[bmw]

I would do a big water change, and not feed for a week--you won't hurt a thing that is doing well. Water flow is good--but I have created cyano even with that.
I am convinced it is a combo of nutrients(which??-nary a clue) and temp. I wouldn't even worry about the lights--got rid of it in full lights.
b.

[ivet]

wonderful, thank you all. I just did a big water change (actually added another 30g to the sump) and it REALLY helped calm things down, especially the skimmer.

I have a lot of circulation in the tank, so much that it is silly to watch this stuff fly around as it grows so big. i dont know how its hanging on!

I'll keep my normal maintenance sched. and keep netting a pound a day til it goes away and/or until i catch the ^%$#amn mantis and buy a trillion snails and hermits so i can laugh an evil laugh. today i heard clicks in 3 different places, and i'm really bummed.

digital camera comes in 7 days, and im EXTREMELY excited to show all of you my pride and joy.

getting ready to take the rock out for a scrub,

ivet

[bill-e]

ivet,

patience, you tank hasnt been set up all that long.

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Bill Esposito
bespo@cereal.mv.com
JAqua for the AquaController 2
http://cereal.mv.com/jaqua.html
My Reef Page
http://cereal.mv.com/reef
The box said "Use Win 95 or better", I chose better so I run OS/2!

[tdwyatt]

Ivet,

Please don't use the erythromycin in the tank. I don't know who told you that the erythromycin wouldn't hurt the nitrifying bacteria, but let me put this in perspective. It is very common practice to treat patients prophylactically with a form of erythromycin that is not easily absorbed (so that most of it stays in the gut) the day prior to gut surgery, as it is a type of surgery that is at risk for peritoneal (abdominal connective tissue) infection from the contents of the gut. Normally the dose is 1 gms at 1, 2 and 5pm the day prior to surgery, and the average volume of distribution for most patients at this dose is about 10 to 15 liters (how much apparent volume to account for the concentration of a drug in plasma) If we assume that it is 16 liters, and that there are approximately 4 liter in a gal, then we have 250mg of erythromycin in a gallon of body fluids, but this is the level that is intended to kill as close to 100% of the gut's flora as possible in the short dosing time that we treat the patient. At normal doses, we treat a patient with 250 mg every 6 to 8 hours for several days, as the drug is rapidly eliminated from the body. Either way you can do the math and see that even at low serum concentrations, erythromycin is a potent, wide spectrum antibiotic (meaning that it can kill a wide range of pathogens). Even at low doses in the aquarium it will reduce the numbers of nitrifying bacteria, and has little discrimination in which bacteria it kills (the mechanism is that erythromycin binds to certain subunits of the 50S level of bacterial ribosomes, thereby preventing essential protein systhesis in the ribosomes). It's minimun inhibitory concentration (MIC) is as low as 0.003 mcg/ml for some spp of bacteria. Even worse, for some human pathogens, the MIC is high enough not to be affected by the concentration in the aquarium, which leads to the development of mutational changes at the ribosomal level in these pathogenic bacteria, leading to RESISTANCE to erythromycin for those bacteria. To you, this may mean absolutely nothing, but to the medical community, it is the cause of the emerging resistance of many common pathogens that were once very susceptable to treatment with erythromycin. Indescriminate antibiotic use is one of the leading causes of the emergence of these resistances, and believe me, even physicians, I hate to say, are guilty of this. Think about this when you have to pay $80 to $100 for a 7 day treatment with antibiotics when it used to be that $8 of erythromycin used to fix most human infections...

Ok, I'll get off the soapbox, but why use a drug fix when we can remove the causes and eliminate the problem altogether? Besides, Cyanobacter is part of the food chain for the infauna of the sandbed, why would you want to kill it??? (see the post on RO units for a more detailed discussion on cyanobacter Click here: http://www.thereeftank.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001974.html )

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Tom <"{{{{>(
(TDWyatt)
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. -Plato

[tdwyatt]

by the way, the phosphate adsorbing sponge products contain Alumina gels, usually Aluminum oxide, the same substance used to bind phosphate in renal patients. It is one method of exporting phosphate from the aquarium, but has problems of it's own, especially on sarcophyton spp.

[This message has been edited by tdwyatt (edited 01-17-2001).]

[ivet]

tom,

thanks for the great read. im grateful you took the time to write. I'm not going to do anything abnormal, just the basics.

thanks everyone.