need help adjusting ph for freshwater dip

[salt creepette]

As everyone knows by now, I am treating a tank for ich. I have been preparing the water daily and it takes about an hour to get the ph of the fresh water to 8.0. It starts at 7.4 (bright yellow on my test kit) and I am using Proper PH, which is supposed to 'automatically set the ph to 8.0.'

It doesnt.

Even when I use a fraction of what it says to use, the PH always ends up around 8.8 or higher. Either that or it is always too low. I try adding unbuffered water to bring it down if its too high, or adding more Proper PH to bring it up if its too low. it is very much trial and error.

Ive heard of people using baking soda but Ive never heard anyone say what ratio to use.

Does anyone have a good formula or instructions for adjusting the ph of a small amount of water (2.5 or 5 gallons) of fresh water to the right PH???

Im at my wits end!

[salt creepette]

here is a letter I wrote to wetwebmedia.com (bob fenner is one of the people on that site so I figure maybe they can help too), it words my problem a bit differently, so maybe it will help:

"I have been trying to buffer freshwater for fwd's with much difficulty. I have been trying Proper PH 8.2, which is supposed to buffer water to 8.2 automatically, but it does not work. It always makes the PH way to high! Is this because its for use on saltwater, not fresh? If so, what AM I supposed to use? Ive heard of using baking soda, but I'm not sure what ratio to use. what is the best way to buffer regular filtered water up to 8.0?"

[Geoff]

i do not know, but maybe you should have the water sit overnight before adding the magic pH setter. sometimes it takes water a while to equalize itself, maybe this is getting in the way of the pH stuff you are trying to use.

G~

[salt creepette]

im using RO water that has already been sitting, but thanks for the suggestion. I used baking soda this morning and it did the trick. I read in another thread its not good to use baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) in salt water but it raises the ph in freshwater which is what I need it for (freshwater dips).

I used about 1tsp for 2 gallons of water if anyone needs to know in the future.

[Doug1]

ah Proper pH was the name I was trying to remember, glad you got it where you need it

[seamonkey]

Baking soda won't realy work for ya any way. It is hard and takes larger quanties to get the ph over 7.7 because it is after all baking soda. Just incase you ever want to try it a teaspoon will change 55gallons from 6.7 to 7.2 in around an hour to much more than a teaspoon and you pollute the water and can kiss the fishy good bye.

[salt creepette]

seamonkey, are you talking about raising the ph of fresh RO water for use in a freshwater dip in a gallon of water in a bucket?

you said something about 55 gallons; I am assuming you are talking about a tank full of saltwater....

[seamonkey]

Sry shoulda specified. I was refering to the 55 as how much you use to raise it a couple of points. Fw I have done for a long time and know that the baking soda will only realy take the ph to a certain point and no higher. It'll just start becoming a death magnet to anything in the water. Its one teaspoon to 55gallons of fw and thats on regular tap water. Ro water should be left go for a day with airation before checking the ph. then start by adding very small amounts of baking soda as you go.

[tdwyatt]

I can calculate a ratio of Na2CO3 and NaHCO3 based on pKa's in FW, but more curiously, why are you doing this with FW for a FW dip? As long as the temp is appropriate, pH will really not matter, as we are NOT trying to make this a comfort bath, rather an osmotic shock for parasites. Normally you would use the fw dip until either the full treatment time has elapsed or the fish shows signs of distress The Spotte book has a formula for just about everything, but does not mention this (I'd check for sure if I could still find it...)

Unless it is extremely acidic or basic, why adjust the pH???

[salt creepette]

oh. i dont know. i was only worried about it cuz everything ive ever read about fwd says to adjust the ph to similar to the tanks ph. if it doesnt matter if I fwd in water that has a ph of 7.6, then I wont worry about it! hah! I like that solution.

[tdwyatt]

[salt creepette]

...with that said, here is the response I got from a lady named Marina at wetwebmedia regarding this subject.....

first email:

"Adjusting Freshwater pH for Dipping
>I have searched and searched (various search engines, sites, worded a thousand different ways) and the directions for preparing freshwater dips say to adjust the pH, but nobody says how.
>>Ah, quite the conundrum my friend.
>I have been trying Proper pH 8.2, which is supposed to buffer water to 8.2 automatically, but it does not work. It always makes the pH way to high!
>>Well, what's the fresh water's pH BEFORE you try to adjust it? That would make a difference, my friend.
>Is this because it's for use on saltwater, not fresh?
>>I'm not familiar with this product, so I couldn't speak to its efficacy in salt vs. fresh water.
>If so, what AM I supposed to use? Ive heard of using baking soda, but nobody says what ratio to use.
>>That's because all freshwater is NOT the same.
>What is the best way to buffer regular filtered water up to 8.0?
>>Filtered in what way? If it's RO/DI, then many folks recommend using Aquarium Systems SeaBuffer and Seachem's Reef Builder and Marine Buffer are all good products. However, it's important to test prior to using this. When performing freshwater dips, unless your municipal water is just terrible, I would adjust its pH in small increments (for instance, experiment a teaspoon at a time with about 2 gallons of water), I would go the sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) route--simple, always available, and CHEAP.
>Please help, my fish has ich and I am desperate.
>>As I see, for which I apologize for the lateness of this reply. The person in whose inbox this was is having computer troubles, I've discovered this evening that it hadn't been answered. Marina
thanks. Erin Rodriguez"

second email:

"Adjusting Freshwater pH for Dipping
>Thanks Marina.
>>You're welcome, Erin.
>The water is RO water, fresh, no salt.
>>Ok.
>pH is 7.4 to start with. I was reading closer in the buffer's instructions and it said to add the salt first then use the buffer, so apparently, it is not for use in fresh water.
>>I'm not sure what buffer you're using, but I'm positive that it's best to buffer your RO water *before* you add salt.. I believe I posted to you a couple of good brands (recommend by Anthony Calfo).
>So i guess I can go the bicarbonate route.
>>Hey, absolutely! It can get expensive using other stuff, especially for a freshwater dip.
>Ive heard other people say, dont bother adjusting the pH for a 4 minute freshwater dip.
>>Oh my God, NO! Adjust it, make SURE you adjust it. Most folks don't understand how QUICKLY pH shock can kill, I think in part because it's difficult for us terrestrial creatures to wrap our minds around what it feels like to be immersed in this life-giving liquid. Osmotic pressure differences, due to salinity levels, are another one many folks surprisingly have a hard time getting their minds around as well.
>Ive also heard people say that adding too much bicarbonate will pollute the water in some way.
>>Oh bugger that. It's plain wrong, and shows a misunderstanding of water chemistry.
>My other question is, when I am adding top off water, do most people adjust the pH, or do they just dump it in at the current pH?
>>If you're topping off with the RO water, you really MUST buffer it so as to prevent shifts in pH. Once buffered, especially if using a quality product, little pH adjustment is necessary beyond that. A pH of 7.4 from RO isn't very bad at all, should be very easily brought up with a good buffer. Look into the B-Ionic, it's getting RAVE reviews quite often on the net by other hobbyists.
>I have done that in the past and my pH has always stayed stable, I was just wondering if/how most people adjust their top off water's pH.
>>Those who've done research, I would say always do. Of course, there's no way to actually quantitatively figure out actual numbers or percentages. If you've been able to go this route with no changes in pH, well.. on one hand I say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", but on the other I would be wary. I'm thinking that you probably do enough water changes on a regular basis that you've prevented any dangerous episodes.
>Any help is appreciated, thanks.
>>Well, I hope I've answered you pH adjustment questions, it's really a very simple procedure to adjust with the sodium bicarbonate for a dip of several minutes. The issue with playing with pH with products that can't hold it is that the pH will shift, and as I said before that can kill very quickly. Marina"

Anybody have any thoughts on this?....Erin

[tdwyatt]

heh! still goes back to that unless the water is extremely acidic or extremely basic, just do the dip. The whole idea of doing these dips is to kill parasites via osmotic shock. Most fishes (with a few exceptions) can swim from one salinity of water to another for short periods of time with little risk of injury, and this occurs with some frequency at the mouths of rivers emptying into the sea. Many do not recommend using them (fwd) at all due to the perceived potential risk to the fish, (I am in neutral on this), but if you will check the reference I mentioned in the original response (the procedure in Steven Spotte's book is used by commercial aquaria to treat their fishes prior to introduction to their collections), I think you will find the answer to your question.

Or then again, you can use whatever information you decide is best. dunno what the writer's qualifications are for the comments on WWM, but, like all the info on the net, read it all, digest what you like from it and try to make an informed decision. I personally like to see documentation for responses that might be contrary to one's intuition on any given subject.

Personally to me, doing any adjustments to water at a pH of 7 is like trying to make boiling an egg risk-free by adding ice to the water, it removes the risk of you getting a burn, but does your egg get cooked?

You decide.

[512148048]

well i just get the temp right then add fish then take out after 5 Minuts then put into tank with stress coat. is that a bad idea?

[salt creepette]

thanks tom! I will try to find that book. Im sure I will survive (my fish rather) since I tend to over-worry about the minute details; better to err on the side of 'too much' information rather than not enough!

on a slightly different application, id still be curious to know what percentage of people buffer their RO water for top off, though. I generally havent and my ph has been stable, but I wonder who does...