Low PH.....Help !!!

[sessydude]

I just started using an electronic PH meter. Thought I was around 8.1 using color test kits. Found out that I am at 7.8......I am worried.

Does anyone have any good suggestions on how to raise it. The LFS told me to use a two part calcium/alkalinity supplement. I tried it for a few days, but it took the PH up 0.1 for about 8 hours and then back down.

Also they advised me on a foxface rabbitfish. They know I am keeping corals and want many more. I have read that the rabbitfish will eat the corals. Your suggestions on that would be really helpful also. I am thinking of returning him. He is very beautiful, but I have learned my lesson in listening to them.

I solemnly vow to always ask the fabulous , terribly intelligent, stupendous reef experts at the TRT before bringing anything else in my reef.

Thanks,

[SouthernReefer]

you're having an issue with the buffering capacity of your aquarium. try doing a partial water change first. if you still have an issue, then add a buffering agent. using kalkwasser as a top off, you can maintian your alkalinity better.
as far as the foxface rabbitfish, never had one. but the book i have says if they are well fed, they should avoid the corals, but may nip at a few here and there....

[tdwyatt]

Originally posted by sessydude
I just started using an electronic PH meter. Thought I was around 8.1 using color test kits. Found out that I am at 7.8......I am worried.

Hi Craig, I think we ae approaching this on 2 different threads. Before going any further, make sure that your pH meter is calibrated. There are several threads in the archives that document how to do this.

In addition, there are some threads that go into how the pH will shift over 24 hours based on when during the day the testing is done, basically a shift from a morning low to an evening high, check here for some water column pH chenistry. . If indeed your water chemistry is off, I would suggest testing for alkalinity ith a Salifiert kit before doing a large number of additives. If pH is down, it is usually a circulation issue or a photoperiod issue, and can be associated with the alkalinity and Ca levels as well. Several good articles on Aquarium Frpontiers and Advanced Reefkeeping by Randy Holmes and Craig Bingman, as well as the archives here for TRT,

I have had Signatus spp fishes, and never had them eat corals, they are not a part of their natural diet, and they will do agreat job eating muisance algal blooms in your tank.. I would encourage you to keep the specimen you have, but be aware that they do have toxic spines (and the ability to concentrate the toxins from cyanobacteria and related algal toxins in their dorsal spines). Great fish, and very personable.

...more by sessydude
I solemnly vow to always ask the fabulous , terribly intelligent, stupendous reef experts at the TRT before bringing anything else in my reef...

its Saturday morning at 7am, Jerel doesn't get up till noon...

[sessydude]

Thank you both,

I tested the alkalinity with the Salifert and it is at 10.6. I know that the PH should go up after the lights are on for the day, however that is usually when it goes down, but just a little. I am not sure of the circulation. I have a RIO 1700 as my return from the sump (upper left corner,rippling the top) one 1200gph power head at the bottom going the same direction, and one 900gph power head top right corner facing the front of the tank(to complete the rotation).

Thank you for the threads I will keep reading,reading,reading. I do love the Signatus and do not want to change him. I don't think I have to worry about his spines too much, as he stays hidden when I am near the tank, and does his famous camouflage.

I think I will do my water change today also and see what happens.

Any advice on what to feed the signatus ? I also have 2 purcula clowns and 1 royal gramma.....

thanks again guys !!!!

[tdwyatt]

Originally posted by sessydude
...I think I will do my water change today also and see what happens... ...Any advice on what to feed the signatus ? I also have 2 purcula clowns and 1 royal gramma...

The Foxface will become less shy as it learns to associate feeding with your presence. E8ther the Kent Platinum algal food or formula II flake will be good, but make sure to supplement with some nori strips (check the Asian markets or look for Suzi Won section in internaatiional foods). Supplement with some Selcon or other HUFA ebntiched supplement. They will accept brine shrimp as well, and mine will eat blender mush if given the opportunity.

Water change may help, but make sure that your meter is cleaned and calibrated. Are you using the AC adapter or the battery? Might want to remove the covers from the tank, as they artivicially increase the atmospheric concentration of CO2, and this will drive your pH down as the concentration gradient of pCO2 (atmospheric) goes up.

[sessydude]

Thanks TDwyatt.....

Here is today's tests

Ca...340
KH....9.9
Alk....3.54
Ammonia...0
Nitrite...0
Nitrate....0
PH......7.8!!!!!!!!

Not sure what I am doing wrong....I did add a calcium supplement, which seemed to bring up the Ca a little.....will keep doing that and watch closely.

I did remove the covers yesterday, but it has not helped yet.

You were right as usual about the Foxface.....he is already getting better with me..(not so sure about the kids yet though

One other thing......I do have a blade leather coral, was doing great until I started noticing the PH problem...he is now shedding a slimey looking skin, and his nodules are not coming out like they used to. He is staying small and not turning red and swelling during the day like he used to. Do you think it could be the calcium problem ?

Thanks again for all your help.

[sessydude]

OH yeah,

Almost forgot....The electronic meter is a brand new Hanna, no batteries...ac only. Is this not a good one ?........I did do a very thorough calibration on it as instructed with the manual.....maybe I should do it again ?

What do you think ?

[tdwyatt]

Originally posted by sessydude
OH yeah, Almost forgot... The electronic meter is a brand new Hanna, no batteries... ac only... I did do a very thorough calibration on it as instructed with the manual ... maybe I should do it again ?

It never hurts to keep a constant calibration, my past experiences with the Hannas has been not good, as they tend to wander from the center of calibration within a few days of constant use, such that by the time a few weeks have gone by, there is a significant amount of error. There is a thread here in the Archives about making a cheapo standard solution with 20 mule team Borax that is good enough for our calibrations, at least to check your meter for its ability to detect an accurate pH. With the American Marine Pinpoints, there is a problem with using the AC adapter, as it tends to introduce an error via electronic noise and RF from the other electronic items in the system. I have not heard this about the Hanna meters, but then again, I haven't been using them for quite a while. Prolly would not hurt to change over to battery power and see if the readings change.

Back to the matter at hand...

originally posted by sessydoode...
Ca.............340
KH.............9.9
Alk.............3.54
Ammonia...0
Nitrite........0
Nitrate.......0
pH............7.8

Not sure what I am doing wrong....I did add a calcium supplement, which seemed to bring up the Ca a little...

What are you using to move your Ca up? If it is just Calcium Chloride, then your corals and other hermatypes (and any other Ca consuming organism) will continue to use the calcium AND THE CARBONATE ALKALINITY from your water column at about the same rate (actually a 1:2 ratio, as the bicarbonate is consumed to make a usable form of carbonate, but that is dependent on a number of factors involving how protons are generated within the calcifying organism) to make skeletal and structural (sclerites in octocorals) components. Calcium, alkalinity, and pH all go hand in hand. Under these circumstances, if you're just adding the Ca, or under a number of other circumstances where extra protons are being generated by biological activity, then the pH will go down and stay down. In tanks without good surface exchange of CO2, the pH will stay down as well, depleting alkalinity through the buffering activity of the carbonate/bicaronate system (a good reason to have good surface agitation and an open tank top.)

Your leather is responding to the low pH, but they just do this sometimes, I am still not convinced that the pH is actually that low, especially if you have a good water change routine. Look at using one of the 2 part additives like B-Ionic for a bit, especially if you can find a source for the older mix (it bumps up the pH a bit by itself). Check the calibration, and test a fresh packet of one of the standard pH solutions. 7.8 is really low, usually a sign of some severe biological activity that is releasing protons (acid cations) into the water column, or some source of excessive CO2. I don't think that using a CaCL2 additive in and of itself would drive the pH down that far, but without a concurrent addition of some source of alkalinity, it is conceivable.

Sorry that I can't give you a pat answer, but there are many variables that may be coming into play in this situation.

HTH

[sessydude]

Tom,

Thanks for more really good info. I will doube check this meter....I am kind of sad that I did not get a good one Again I am learning that pre-research is much better.

I just want to make sure I am straight on one thing though....When the alkalinity is higher is the PH lower ? I did start using the B-ionic 2 part solution for alkalinity and Calcium. But that was about a week ago and the PH is still staying low. What happens is I add the solution as instructed and the ph value goes up about 0.1 per 30ml that I add.....(90 gal tank) I do not want to overdose on that stuff so I have not tried doubling the recommended amount.

However after the skin looking stuff came off of the Leather. The next day(yesterday) it looked great again. Bright large and swollen with lots of bumps on it. ( I am assuming these are how it eats.)

I am going to test again when I get home today and see where we are.

As far as when you say that it could be some sort of bad biological condition, that does make me wonder... because I have had a problem with an errant crab or snail dying at the rate of about 1 per week. I do always pull them out when I can get to them before another crab does. However one of my large turbo's came up dead yesterday....

I just wonder what you meant by severe biological activity. I know that it could be a variety of things, but not sure what you mean by that.

again I thank you more than you know.....you are a great help in this.....

[sessydude]

Oops forgot again.......When I add the 2 part solution (always first thing in the morning before the lights come on).....it does raise the ph like I said......but within about 6 to 8 hours it is back down again......

[tdwyatt]

Originally posted by sessydude
I just want to make sure I am straight on (a few) thing(s) ...When the alkalinity is higher is the PH lower?

usually no, the pH will almost always go up after the addition of the alkalinity portion of B-Ionic. The newer formulation is not quite so bad as the older formulation about increasing pH, but expect to see the pH go to about 9.5 or so temporarily, then drop back within the 8.3 to 8.6 range within 30 minutes (more like 5, but I have seen it take longer in some systems with slow circulation). The alk portion of 2 part additives contain a ratio of sodium bicarbonate and sodium carbonate (usually 6:1 to 8:1), and it is the Carbonate salt that drives the pH up so much (its pKa drives the pH in plain water to 12.4 or so by itself). Many plain buffers that contain only sodium bicarbonate may actually drop your pH initially, and if used in excess, the bicarbonate may dissociate and drive the CO2 levels high enough to see some localized effervescence, although this would be unusual. Especially in the presence of amounts of organic acids, the problem then becomes the excess CO2 available to the water column, which of course, drives the pH down. By using the alkalinity portion of the B-Ionic at reasonable doses, you should be able to avoid this problem. In systems that have large alk deficiencies, addition of double doses are usually not a problem.

more by the doode
However after the skin-looking stuff came off of the Leather ... it looked great again. Bright large and swollen with lots of bumps on it...

Leathers just do this from time to time, and although under continued good, stable conditions, they will seldom do this, it is a characteristic of Leathers in general, and is usually a response to the water conditions. It is a means of the leather ridding its surface of debris and/or parasites.

sessydude continues...
I have had a problem with an errant crab or snail dying at the rate of about 1 per week ... I just wonder what you meant by severe biological activity. I know that it could be a variety of things, but not sure what you mean by that.

This is one of the things that I was referring to. If you have a single snail die and go unnoticed, it can produce enough decomposition byproducts to drive your pH down (organic acids and partially decomposed proteinaceous byproducts) depending on the size of your tank. Might want to check on your salinity, keeping in mind that many species of snails and crabs are extremely sensitive to changing salinities. Improper acclimatization may have long-lasting effects on your critters, and it may have been a problem before you purchased the specimens (esp if the LFS just dumped the snails into their tank ). Although some snails are Inter-tidal species, many of the ones we use are not, and daily variations in salinity will shorten their lifespan, especially if there isn't a lot of algal matter for them to graze.

...When I add the 2 part solution (always first thing in the morning before the lights come on).....it does raise the ph like I said ... but within about 6 to 8 hours it is back down again...

Normal, not to worry. Expect to see a morning low of 7.95 to 8.0 and an evening high of 8.3 to 8.4 or so, although in heavy coralline and macroalgal systems, the evening pH may go as high as 8.5, many, many variables to consider here.

I would suggest spending some time searching the archives here for threads on pH, alkalinity, calcium and the carbonate/bicarbonate buffer system for more info, there are many good threads that discuss it in depth by many posters. This will help gain an understanding of how these systems are interrelated.

HTH, sorry to the long post.

[sessydude]

You are a good man Tom.......I am very appreciative of all your help.....Anyone else reading this must know that without the help of Tom and all the other great people on this forum....I would be soooooo lost right now.

This is the greatest information forum I have ever found with the nicest most helpful people ever......

I will keep in touch with you and send some pics soon....As soon as I can figure out how to get my camera to take lower resolution pictures.....

Thanks Again !!!!!!!!!!!

[tdwyatt]

Originally posted by sessydude
...I will keep in touch with you and send some pics soon....As soon as I can figure out how to get my camera to take lower resolution pictures...

Heh! Looking forward to seeing some pix... there are several folks here that are quite adept with digital images, they have posted here as well, I think there are a few threads in the arhives on this subjet.

Thanks for the comments, and you're always welcome !

[sessydude]

Ok....here they are......with Geoff's wonderful help and advice, I finally figured the image thing out......here are some rough pictures. ( now I have to get better at the photography part )

[sessydude]

and another......