Calcium supplimentation

[Hommeworks]

Good Monday morning all! I'm started to amass a fairly good population of SPSs. I've been using the Kent Calcium suppliment, but this seems overly expensive. Did I hear someone out here mention they used Pickling Lime? Is this common item a good choice? Seems like a good economical sunstitute.

[Evergreen]

Can i add to this question ? What is the differenece between kalkwasser dosing and Calcium suplementation? after all, isnt Kalk a form of calcium? and it seems like people will do both...

[Spanky]

Dosing nothing but Kalk (which will add the same proportions of Ca and Alk each time) can skew your ratios if your tank has a heavier demand of one over the other. It will still be necessary to test and add either more Alk or more Ca, which ever one you need more of. Plus, unless your tank has a evaporation rate that's consistent with the amount of Kalk you're adding, you might not be able to add enough Kalk to keep up with demand at all.

Spanks

[Evergreen]

Ok so the since pickling lime=kalkwasser, you will still need to dose whatever you are deficent in, what kind of Calcium then is recommended for "pure" Calcium not Kalk type? Do you need to dose pure Ca over time like you do with Kalk? or can you drop in a dose a day? or can you ADD the pure Ca to your Kalk dripper??

[Sue Truett]

In my 180 sps/clam tank I drip kalk. via all top-off and I am still not able to keep up. So as I am not going to be getting a calcium reactor, I use Tropic Marin Bio-Calcium/Kent's Superbuffer dKh powder to boost when needed. I do only need to boost about 1 day weekly. I test this tank for calcium and alkalinity once weekly or bi-weekly. My 120 sps only tank I use the same method of calcium delivery. BUT the big thing here is this tank evaporates over 14 gallons weekly. So I am able to keep up the cal/alk. levels mostly with this drip. If one test is low I add accordingly.

One thing to be careful of is to be sure to balance out both the calcium and alkalinity levels. These can develope the see-saw effect where one will be sky high while the other bottoms out. Just be sure they are within range and you should be good to go.

my 180 ecosystem sps/clam tank:
http://berlinmethod.com/suet/
my 120 ecosystem sps tank:
http://suetruett.homestead.com/home.html

[seahawkjohnny]

Originally posted by Sue Truett
In my 180 sps/clam tank I drip kalk. via all top-off and I am still not able to keep up. So as I am not going to be getting a calcium reactor, I use Tropic Marin Bio-Calcium/Kent's Superbuffer dKh powder to boost when needed. I do only need to boost about 1 day weekly. I test this tank for calcium and alkalinity once weekly or bi-weekly. My 120 sps only tank I use the same method of calcium delivery. BUT the big thing here is this tank evaporates over 14 gallons weekly. So I am able to keep up the cal/alk. levels mostly with this drip. If one test is low I add accordingly.

One thing to be careful of is to be sure to balance out both the calcium and alkalinity levels. These can develope the see-saw effect where one will be sky high while the other bottoms out. Just be sure they are within range and you should be good to go.

my 180 ecosystem sps/clam tank:
http://berlinmethod.com/suet/
my 120 ecosystem sps tank:
http://suetruett.homestead.com/home.html

Sue...

How come you wont be adding a calcium reactor?

[blaneperun]

Sue, has a great set up and mentions a good point that most beginners and even advanced hobbyist don’t realize. Calcium Hydroxide will actually deplete your buffer, many people new to the hobby spend futile hours trying to keep them in balance. Everyone always shoots for these ideal levels. I traveled to the Keys to do some research on water. I took sample from Miami to Key West and found CaCo2 to be at 375 and buffer at 3.0 MEQ-L. So don’t place too much emphasis on level but use them as guidelines, the animal in you tank will reveal if they are happy. With regards to Liquid Calcium supplements, there are a few out there. The two part mixtures often provide buffer as well as Calcium. Liquid Calcium supplements often contains EDTA Gluonates, these are more suited for the growth of Coraline algaes than building stony coral. For nearly 6 years I does nothing more than Calcium Hydroxide (Kalkwasser). I found SeaChem to provide a good product for a reasonable price. Follow a regimen like 3 weeks of Kalk and no buffer, then stop Kalk for one week and just add buffer. This will provide you with good stabilization.

Blane

[mojoreef]

I try not to suppliment any chemicals with additives and much perfer the use of a large calcium reactor (or 2). We as reefers usually keep our levels of calcium and alk. higher than they are found in any reef or ocean waters. Most of us do this to enhance growth rates in our stoney type corals. I really discurage folks from using single part calcium only or alk only additives as it is really hard to raise your chemical make up in water in a balanced way (which is what it has to be) and most of the time you spend to much time doing the seasaw game. For advanced reefers (those who have had thier tanks up for years) they tend to have gone through all these ups and downs and are really in tune with what thier tanks require.

For newer reefers I always recomend a 2 part balanced formula which will raise all levels in a ionically balanced meathod (and not just alk and cal). This takes the pain out of screwing around with it. And as mentioned above never add anything until you know u need it.




MIke

[Sue Truett]

seahawkjohnny, I don't see the need for one. I have been keeping sps corals for right at 4.5 years now and clams for about the same and I just feel I have what my tanks need to perfection. I don't care for the trouble they are to get dialed in and I do realize that once they are things are fine, but I just don't want or care to mess with them. I have great coral growth and color and I kind of feel if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Any calcium or buffering additives I might need I get with trade ins for frags so it is really no expense to me for those.

my 180 ecosystem sps/clam tank:
http://berlinmethod.com/suet/
my 120 ecosystem sps tank:
http://suetruett.homestead.com/home.html

[R1Bill]

Homme,

I've been dosing only pickling lime for a long time now and it's been working great. My CA level is 440 at the moment. Add about 10 tsp per week with 10 gallons of evaporation. Mix with a power drill and paint stirrer.

Get it here:

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/mrswages/mrswagpiclim.html

Bought 12 pounds for $1.83/pound.

I did pick up some B-Ionic for use this winter when the evaporation decreases.

Got some articles here for you by Dr. Craig Bingman:

http://www.reefs.org/library/article/c_bingman.html

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/a...io/default.asp

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/a...io/default.asp





Bill

[Hommeworks]

Bill,
Thanks much appreciated. My lfs is always trying to move his Kent inventory so his recommendations seldom drift from suppliments. I'll cut & paste your append to implement and keep in my records. Upto now I have been using the Kent liquid calcium. Then I noticed traces of algae. This issue of calcium, alkalinity, buffering, and pH very much parallels my swimming pool parameters. But nothing dies when the pool gets out of whack. It just turns green.

[R1Bill]

Homme,

Most recommendations are for B-Ionic and then C-Balance. I don't remember why but usually Kent is really not recommended.



Bill

[tdwyatt]

Originally posted by blaneperun
Sue, has a great set up and mentions a good point that most beginners and even advanced hobbyist don’t realize. Calcium Hydroxide will actually deplete your buffer...

Hi Blane, in actuality, the reaction that occurs with Ca hydroxide and seawater is that if forms alkalinity from atmospheric CO2. Carbon dioxide is in almost instant saturation level with the atmosphere, such that the pCO2 in seawater is actually the same as the atmosphere. This allows the hydroxide to quickly react with carbonic acid to act as the proton acceptor to form the bicarbonate ion, which is then driven to carbonate and back to bicarbonate based on the proton availability of seawater at that time. Bicarbonate is the actual source of the CO3 for skeletalization and calcification (check out Thomas MacConnaughay, circa 1994) at the coenosteum interface and is used in equimolar amounts with Calcium ions to produce aragonite (CaCO3) in the skeleton (along with some minor other trace elements that improve skeletal strength). Calcium forms its ionic saturation at 500 PPM in the presence of the different carbonate ions (CO3-- and HCO3- and H2CO3) in seawater. The carbonate ion dissociates back to Bicarbonate to form the basis for the carbonate/bicarbonate buffer effect (proton donor/receptors). When you measure Ca in the water, you are mostly measuring the ion only, not a measure of a concentration of CaCO3 (what little undissociated CaCO3 exists in seawater usually is the flash precursor to the precipitate, and once this precipitate forms, it is unavailable to seawater column testing). The use of Calcium hydroxide as a calcium and alkalinity supplement DOES provide for a balanced supplementation of both Calcium and Carbonate. For a more in-depth discussion, see http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/sh...oxide+and+Kalk where there are several points of view that discuss this avenue of Calcium and Alk supplementation. I prefer Kalkwasser top off if your evaporation rate will allow adequate top off with Kalkwasser. I have a Ca reactor, but do not currently use the machine to do the CO2 mixing. Craig (Bingman) has an article that uses a computer model to demonstrate that over time, two part additives gradually skew the composition of your synthetic mix to gradually become a mostly Sodium and Chloride based mix, destroying the proportions of the conservative elements of seawater. Even with biweekly changes, the cycle will continue to increase both sodium (from the alkalinity mix with mostly sodium bicarbonate and sodium carbonate) and chloride ion (as the Calcium part is almost always CaCl2) as the Ca and Alkalinity are used to make the skeletons, and the sodium and the chloride remain. He has suggested that massive water column changes in closed systems be performed every year or so to reestablish the conservative proportions of a system's water column. I use the 2 parts to adjust occasional variances in one or the other parts of this equation, but currently am trying to stay away from a total dependence on 2 part additives for this reason.

The inappropriate use of limewater does have the capability to deplete alkalinity, as will any alkalinity additive that is added so quickly as to result in the formation of the Calcium Carbonate precipitate. This will include the alkalinity portions of 2 part additives, as they can form locally high concentrations of free carbonate and bicarbonate, enough so as to precipitate free Ca ions out as calcium carbonate (CaCO3). This is usually finely divided enough that if the precipitate is quickly diluted, it will not form a permanent precipitate (as when the total solution is saturated in the absence of Magnesium), but this can still occur. To avoid this, both kalkwasser and the alkalinity part of the 2 part products should be slowly dripped or added as a very dilute solution (it is suggested that the "A" part of B-Ionic be added after diluting to around 15 times its original volume in RO water).

Just my 2 cents worth...

[R1Bill]

Tom,

I must thank you for your frequent, detailed, informative, excellent and appropiate posts.

Thanks,

Bill

[jzdziarski]

Kent also makes a product called 'Turbo Calcium' which is fairly cheap and works very well.