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10-15-2003, 08:45 PM
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#1
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The Border Collie Mod
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: right now? in my chair
Posts: 13,218
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What's the big deal with phosphorous compounds? :)
What phosphorous compounds do you have to deal with? Where are they found? How stable are they? What causes them to break bonds or degrade? What's left over? How stable is that? and what does it react with?
When you know all this, how do you deal with it? 
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10-15-2003, 09:10 PM
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#2
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Blacktip Shark
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Middleburg, VA
Posts: 2,113
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Wow Spanky! I know so much about this subject I don't want to give my expertise away so early!  I'm interested to hear what everyone has to say!
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Austin
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want
He who fears the thorn, should never crave the rose.
-favorite TRT quote
Forecast for tonight: dark, continued dark overnight, widely scattered light by morning
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10-15-2003, 10:07 PM
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#3
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The Border Collie Mod
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: right now? in my chair
Posts: 13,218
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OK I'll get you guys started. Usually you would refer to phosphates as organic or in-organic.
What's the difference?
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Clifford TRT's Mascot -->
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10-15-2003, 10:14 PM
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#4
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Ghost of reefers past
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Southern Oregon, Way West of Dimples ;)
Posts: 25,150
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Spanks, I think the organic/inorganic issue is one that confuses people alot.
You have test kits (hehehe) that measure one but not the other, then you have the famous last words "my parameters are all great but I have this algae bloom" What to do, what to do?
I think this rates right up with with Iodine/Iodide/Iodate testing and adding and lastly the calcium/alk.pH interelationship that is so easily explained to the new reefer
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Cowboy is a verb, not a noun
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10-15-2003, 10:19 PM
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#5
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Future reefer (my boy)
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Wray, Colorado
Posts: 570
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ummm....I am a little slow I guess......  Feel free to continue
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"Uncommon Valor was a Common Virtue" ---Admiral Nimitz (Navy) speaking of Marines in one of the bloodiest battles known to man
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10-15-2003, 10:49 PM
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#6
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Ghost of reefers past
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Southern Oregon, Way West of Dimples ;)
Posts: 25,150
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Dont feel bad Travis, I have played with SW since the mid 70's and all I know is I don't no squat
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Cowboy is a verb, not a noun
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10-15-2003, 10:56 PM
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#7
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Future reefer (my boy)
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Wray, Colorado
Posts: 570
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hehe...ok good...it seems the more I read the dumber I get
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----SEMPER FI----
"Uncommon Valor was a Common Virtue" ---Admiral Nimitz (Navy) speaking of Marines in one of the bloodiest battles known to man
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10-15-2003, 11:12 PM
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#8
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Big Fishy
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Southeast MI
Posts: 680
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Spanky
What phosphorous compounds do you have to deal with?
Phosphorous acid!
Where are they found?
In my city water supply for rust control!
How stable are they? What causes them to break bonds or degrade? What's left over? How stable is that?
I have no idea!
What does it react with?
It eats up DI filters & grows algae really good!
When you know all this, how do you deal with it?
If knew all of that I would not have to ask! 
I have to start somewhere |
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10-16-2003, 04:56 AM
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#9
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Little Fishy
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Holland (Europe)
Posts: 82
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spanky
OK I'll get you guys started. Usually you would refer to phosphates as organic or in-organic.
What's the difference?
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Spanky:
Yes, please tell me more about it.
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habib
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10-16-2003, 08:04 AM
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#10
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The Border Collie Mod
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: right now? in my chair
Posts: 13,218
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Jerel chases Habib with a frozen tuna!
I'm not supposed to lecture over here you know, you're supposed to tell me!
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10-16-2003, 01:15 PM
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#11
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Shark
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 1,588
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Dr. "Socratic Method" Jerel.
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"The cultured might call him heathenish, This man of few words, because his one care is not to interfere but to let nature renew The sense of direction men undo." Lao Tzu
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10-16-2003, 01:58 PM
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#12
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Little Fishy
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Holland (Europe)
Posts: 82
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Jerel chases Habib with a frozen tuna!
My head is aching now.
So why do you think it makes a difference if it is inorganic or organic phosphate.
Remember you did exclude later on organic phosphorous compounds with the exeption of the organo-phosphates.
Oh btw to answer one of your questions:
Organic phosphates are not inorganic and inorganic phosphates are not organic.
HTH
Signed: your student Plato
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habib
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10-16-2003, 04:51 PM
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#13
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Little Fishy
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Holland (Europe)
Posts: 82
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OK serious now.
For algae as a nutrient it does not matter if it is inorganic ortho-phosphate or it is an organic phosphate ester.
Although they can't take up the organic phosphate, they will excrete an enzyme to transform it to, for them bio-available, ortho-phosphate.
They will only do this if the ortho-phosphate concentration in the water is extremely low.
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habib
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10-16-2003, 05:28 PM
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#14
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The Border Collie Mod
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: right now? in my chair
Posts: 13,218
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OK Mister! LOL I'll give you that one. Now reference that to closed systems.
and you know me too well too, work bacteria into that formula. 
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10-16-2003, 06:27 PM
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#15
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Shark
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: wash
Posts: 2,262
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Ok I will take a shot.
Organic phosphate is the phosphate that is bound or tied up in plant tissue, waste solids, or other organic material. Inorganic phosphates would be those that have not been bound yet???
Unlike nitrogen, phosphate is retained in the substraghts by a complex system of biological uptake, absorption, and minerialization. The biological uptake concerns use of the organic phosphate in everything from rna to dna to stp.
OK Ok back to bacteria, lol . The increase in Phosphate being released into the tank water will initially cause an increase in biological divercity population. But as phosphate loading continues it creates an imbalance in the nutrient and material cycling process. Basically it bottom loads the system, the nutrients go in the algae grows, rots, the bacteria populate to consume the decomposing algae and waste, they die creating more waste and decomposing material...its all a vicious cycle, lol. I believe this is what is called Eutrophication. Anyway all this bottom end production continues until the tank can no longer handle (as in it produces more vegitation/bacteria/plankton then the tank can consume). The bacteria that does consume the organic waste and thus in themselves release more phosphates into the system through oxygen comsumtion.
Ok so now you put this madness in the DSB and you get a whole ton of bacteria trying to consume organics, as thier population peeks they comsume mass quantities of oxygen. this leads to the expantion of areas of the bed in regards to oxygen, thus making the bed anaerobic quicker.
So what it does is to greatly excellerate the aging of your tank. If you add phosphates to your tank (in the way of top off, foods, sand and so on) and you allow it to sink into your DSB you are going to create a biological ecosystem that will excellerate the aging process of your system.
Ok I did this quick and didnt look back so be gentle, lol
Mike
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