The feasibility of the Caribbean biotope

[galleon]

Just to help kick off the new forum, does anyone think we'll ever see the reallowal of hobbyist use of Caribbean coral species? Obviously, none will ever come from the Keys due to its designation as a national marine sanctuary, but what about relinquishing the necessity for possession permits of Atlantic species when aquacultured stocks are great enough to allow hobbyists to once again have TWA biotope systems. Are you for it or against it? Why or why not? Would you keep an Atlantic tank?

[Doug1]

Interesting question Chris. I am not sure the average reef hobbiest is fully aware of the restrictions there. Are these species themselves protected by law, or limited to areas that are protected by law?

[Brooke]

I agree it would be helpful to recap the specific ban on collecting Florida and TWA (tropical western atlantic) species and live rock and how it relates to hobbyists now.

I know from the research we did on a "floribbean" FO that there are a good number of fish species from this area that are available including basslets, hamlets, angels, butterflies, etc. It is even possible to put together a pseudo TWA reef with the available gorgonia, sponges, anemones, etc. that exist from places like www.divertom.com www.etropicals.com, www.tbsaltwater.com and others.

Personally, I'm fine not having access to TWA corals. I am glad that the fish are available, however. We all understand the fragility of the wild reefs and desire to protect them. Perhaps we all should pay more attention to where our corals are coming from, the impact on the regions, etc. How would we feel if the Australians were collecting from our waters simply to protect their own?

Another comment which we could put in a thread all its own. Recently there has been a huge influx of wild SPS being purchased. Companies that have tried to sell aquacultured frags have been driven out of business or forced to submit to the desires of more advanced reefers for bigger specimens, better, more diverse color, and varieties. Let us NOT get greedy in our quest for a beautiful tank and remember that with time aquacultured frags will grow into beautiful colonies.

FWIW-
Brooke

[mojoreef]

Personally I dont think the caribean should be open to collection, or at least in our lifetime. This particular area, and its underwater inhabitants suffer from a number of things that put pressure on its chances to make a come back. The restocking and revitalization of this areas will not bring back the enviroment it once had, but merly a show of what it was. So for me it is a "lets just leave it alone for a little while longer"

On the SPS comment made ny Brooke. What alot of hobbists dont realize is the larger the colony of SPS you purchase, the more chance of it dieing. From my experence the small colonies and or frags have a much greater chance for survival. Captive grown colonies and frags are even better.

Mike

[Geoff]

what would the limitations of let say tbsaltwater, who have a lease of land for thier LR, fragging any coral they get and selling it. i would expect after about a year or so, they would be getting some new coral growths. are their species bans on certain corals?

G~

[tdwyatt]

Originally posted by mojoreef
Personally I dont think the caribean should be open to collection... This particular area, and its underwater inhabitants suffer from a number of things that put pressure on its chances to make a come back. The restocking and revitalization of this areas will not bring back the enviroment it once had, but merly a show of what it was. So for me it is a "lets just leave it alone for a little while longer"

I dunno, maybe it is a time dilation effect that has occurred in these past 40 years from the time i was a snorkling kid until now, but the current state of the Caribbean reefs is drastically different from my adolescent diving rememberances (heh, and you could buy your 2 hose regulater from Sears!!!) The number of species of Acros is now down to 3 or 4 depending on what you consider to be sustainable at this point in time. The few that are left are more difficult to keep in closed systems (Acropora palmita requires such a high energy environment that is is beyond the capabilities of most reef keepers, and even then will require a dedicated specie tank). Between the disappearance in the late 1980's of many Diadema urchins and the other anthropomorphic changes in the Caribbean, there is indeed little chance to see the types of reefs that were common in the 1960's. I would not be opposed to permitting special collections for research and measurement, but to open collection of these species to the general public within the proximity of such a large number of potential collectors (..."hey Bubbba, lets go down to Florida this weekend and fill the tank with some Acro's, I'll get the boat, you get the beer..." ) lacks both foresight and prudence, to say the least.

I am trying to be restrained on this, the wife tells me I must be mellowing with age...

[mojoreef]

Tom didnt we just agree or am I to getting old

Mike

[galleon]

To be honest with you all, I don't know all of the regulations on Atlantics.

"The number of species of Acros is now down to 3 or 4 depending on what you consider to be sustainable at this point in time."

In the TWA, there have only been 2-3 (depending on whether you consider A. prolifera a viable hybrid species), since oh, say, about the pleistocene, or earlier.

"Acropora palmita requires such a high energy environment that is is beyond the capabilities of most reef keepers, and even then will require a dedicated specie tank."

Well, I have to disagree with you there. Acropora palmata has been demonstrated to hold same general captive care requirements as A. cervicornis and A. prolifera, both of which flourish in captivity. The problem with A. palmata in captivity is not one of health, but one of architecture. Actually, this is being discussed currently (or was a few weeks ago) on NOAA's CHAMP coral-list. With generally alterred (speaking in terms of turbulence, not high or low) captive energy, the colony's robust baroque branches begin to finger at the terminal ends, developing A. prolifera-like axial corallites.

This has even been demonstrated in the wild (Discovery Bay Harbor, Jamaica), where a change in the energies reaching a reef crest spurring A. cervicornis-like growths on the elkhorn. In Puerto Rico the phenotypes change intracolonially, some of the terminal branches are in highly turbulent current microenvironments (micro-pools and micro-upwelling), and show the A. prolifera-like branches. However, other branches from the same colony are in more laminar and less turbulent flow microenvironments and demonstrate phenotypically characteristic elkhorn branches

"Diadema urchins and the other anthropomorphic changes in the Caribbean, there is indeed little chance to see the types of reefs that were common in the 1960's. "

African dust.

[Alice]

Chris, I know that all corals can adapt different morphologies of growth depending on the flow rate they are subject to...why does that pose a problem for A. palmata in captivity? Or does it? The morphology of the growth pattern isn't going to affect the health of the coral, is it?

[galleon]

Doesn't effect the health at all or in any way that has been determined.

[SAT]

I'm against wholesale collection of corals from TWA reefs. Whether that seriously harms the reef or not, it creates a huge perception problem for the hobby. However, I see no reason why aquacultured corals should not be available. Why not allow a responsible facility, such as TBS, purchase a section of reef in the Florida Keys or Puerto Rico and grow coral frags there? Alternately, why not allow surplus frags from public aquaria (or from Spanky ) to be distributed to hobbyists?

[SAT]

On a related topic, is there a definitive list of "TWA look-alike" corals from the Indo-Pacific? For instance, which species looks most like A. cervicornis? How about Agaricia? Lacking availability of Caribbean species, I might choose to go with similar Pacific ones and forget the whole import problem.

[SPC]

Personally I am happy with the corals that are growing on the Fla aquacultured rock. I set my tank up to be a Caribbean/Gulf biotope (as close as I can make it anyway ) for several reasons:
1. I was born and raised in Miami and saw the same reefs (in the 60s) that Tom did. My interest was in having a small pc of this area in my home, even if it did not include all the coral species. Some of the animals I keep I have personal experience with their wild behaviors.
2. I can talk directly to the diver for any of my livestock purchases. The info I receive from him (and Jerel) allows me to know the environement in which the animals came from which I find very valuable.
3. I don't have to compromise my biotope by placing certain animals in the system that are not native to this area. For instance, before I started this system I noticed that most of the clean up crew animals offered were from this area. I will have to say I might have cheated recently however , I placed 5 Mexican turbos in my tank, maybe they come from the Gulf side .

As to the question that Chris asked, no I don't think in my life time we will ever see any of the corals being harvested from this area that are not permitted now, and I agree with this.
I also feel that a place such as TBS could be trusted to aquaculture many of these corals, but I just wonder what the demand would be. Most reefers who look at my tank probably think it is boring and has little color compared to their reef tanks (all of them have been polite so far and haven't said that ).
Steve

[tdwyatt]

Originally posted by mojoreef
Tom didnt we just agree or am I to getting old

yup, just my 2 cents on your statement

[Doug1]

No bites in 3 days