Skimmer's, UV's and Refugiums (Previous QQQ thread)

[cichlidite]

I have been following this thread with high interest because as some of you know I am designing my system from scratch to set up next month. So, this has been very applicable to me.

However, I do not understand, even after Balakoth explained it, why some think that with a DSB (wherever you put it) and a refugium, that skimming may be "counter productive"?? I'd be very grateful if someone could explain that to me. Is it because the DSB and 'fuge needs to "eat" the organics that the skimmer removes? My intention was to have a DSB in a refugium seperate from my sump (w/heavy duty skimmer). Am I barking up the wrong tree?

Mike

[mojoreef]

cichlidite some folks beleive that when you use a skimmer that you will skim up some of the animals and bacteria that you are tring to keep and multiply, and you will. Myself personally I have no problem saying good bye to a few of these critters (even though I have never seen a pod in my collection cup) in order to remove the excess organics.

mike

[MontanaRocknReefer]

I agree with Mike! Excess organics has to go and pods can be replaced by more pods! Johnny

[dark horge]

Mike's right.

A foam fractionator (skimmer) is injurious only to the objectives that a 'fuge is meant to meet, and those are only secondarily related to waste management.

The problem for most people is a confusion of terms.
A refugium is expressly for the generation of plankton and nekton that can wind up downstream and 'feed' the tank: a literal "refuge" for such living snacks against predators that might severely reduce their presence in the system, if not eliminate it outright.

An algal filter is meant to lock up pollutants, particularly metals and nitrogenous waste, and with regular harvest of algal mass ---export the pollutants from the system.

Very often these two very different functions are combined in one container, and the fancier-sounding term 'refugium' is retained.

---

Now here is where conflict arises:
Live plankton from a 'fuge does NOT spoil if left uneaten, right?
That means an optimally-functioning 'fuge allows you to dramatically reduce 'dead food' imports.

Conventional 'dead food' imports usually generate a LOT of rotting scrap, and this bears directly on waste management. (BTW, a mature Deep Sand Bed (DSB) goes a long way towards ensuring these scraps are scavenged/processed to the last particle, but not every scrap falls to the bottom.)

A frac (skimmer) unfortunately reduces the amount of nekton and plankton the 'fuge can maintain in the display, thereby limiting how much you can reduce your dead food imports (and theoretically, also thereby limiting how much you can voluntarily reduce potential pollutant waste).



In the end, a frac (skimmer) gives you DIRECT, visible waste export.

A 'fuge gives you the opportunity to reduce waste generation.

An algal filter addresses nitrogenous waste that a frac can't touch, and the bulk of this is usually from respiratory/digestive ammonia anyway, rather than rotting, uneaten scrap (unless you're ladling in pounds of shredded clam into the tank every lunchtime)


So...
If your priority is waste export, then do NOT ditch a working skimmer.

But as soon as the fuge is puking out plankton, you can maybe try gradually ratcheting down both your food imports AND the skimmer throughput

...and see if you want to take it further.
Or step back.

hth,

horge

[cichlidite]

Wow. Thanks! You kinda blew my mind on that one....I'll have to digest that for a while before I proceed. Seems there are a lot of conflicting philosophies and misunderstandings out there, all of which make this site invaluable. I see now why some of the more experiences reefers out there put their skimmers on a timer. Thanks again!

Mike

[OodleyBoodely]

Hmmm....Mr. Oddministrator, that was a very illuminating reply. Helped to clear a few webs in my head, anyhow!

[Jimbo]

Another thing to add is that a skimmer (I believe) helps when you first start out your tank and refugium. My skimmer used to puke out all kinds of stuff, now hardly any after 6 months of machuration and the addition of many creatures along the ecological food chain (except flatworms uuugggg). Hopefully my mandarin will eat them

[Brooke]

Thank you Horge, it's nice having you back

Hey Mike ...there are numerous successful ways to set up a reef tank. Every ecosystem we create is different and unique. So if anyone ever tells you it's their way or the highway...take it with a grain of salt....or sand


Brooke

[cichlidite]

Brooke says: "So if anyone ever tells you it's their way or the highway...take it with a grain of salt....or sand "

Great advice, Brooke! But if I did not at least "sift" thru all the great responses, and take many of them for action, I'd be a fool....and I may be a lot of things, but that is not one of them.

I have found that most people are not wrong, even if their opinion differs from someone else's. This thread has opened my eyes to the fact that there are more ways and more reasons to do or not do something that I had first thought.

I still think a DSB in my 35g hex 'fuge, with at least a part-time skimmer in my sump, is the way to go. I'll ask the specifics of detrivores and macro-algea and other critters in the 'fuge as I get closer to setting up.

I also like the idea of reducing the time of the skimmer from full time to part time as the tank cycles/matures, seems smart to me for all the reasons mentioned. The part I still do not understand is the timing (day/night) of all the components. I know 'fuge lights should be opposite of the tank because of something to do with pH, but as far as when to have the skimmer on (which 7 hours, if it makes a diff) would I keep it on.

But all this reminds me of something Jeff (Stang69) tells me whenever I go to his store: Keep it simple....too many people make this too hard, and the harder it is, the harder it is....or something like that!! Right, Jeff?

But in the end, I guess I'm left with more questions than answers!
Such is life!!

Mike

[dark horge]

Aye, Brookie.
to quote Marcus Aurelius, albeit slightly out of context:

'Everything is opinion'



Lo!
All human attempts at description will fail to capture the infinite whole truth, and must thus be subjectively edited to fit the limits of language and intelligence:

subjective, and therefore at least partly opinion.



Hehe. It's too early here at work, hence my droning on and on...
Honest! I'm much more fun after lunch.

[Brooke]

hehe..Mike, I think you'll find 95% of the people here on TRT agree that there are many reefing philosophies that work. I know people with 5 yr old tanks that don't skim....OR do water changes. It might work for them, but they don't tell everyone that it's the only way to go...that was the point I was trying to make .

Horge offers sound advice and explanation as always.

Your thinking is correct on allowing the tank to mature with the help of a skimmer. As long as we continue to empty rank smelling stuff out of the skimmer, we'll continue to skim our tank.

[cichlidite]

Brooke: yes, I know people that only do water changes every 6 months....amazing how that flys in the face of convention, yet works great for them. I've seen their tanks and they are pristine.

Horge: thanks for the time it took you to explain your wisdom. I will use that knowledge while I set up and beyond.

But here's the deal: I plan to use my 'fuge as a filter...in the same manner as the skimmer....to purify the water. I just have to work out the "counter-productive" issues and find a balance that works for me. I like the idea of cultivating macro-algae, and maybe housing detrivores, LR and other critters in the 'fuge, but I certainly do not want to starve them with the use of the skimmer.

Anxiously,
Mike

[Stang69]

Rember it aint rocket Science hehhe

Jeff

[fishinchick]

If you DO get a skimmer........ dont be like me and forget to empty it once in a while.
Reading this thread reminded me I forgot. It was full. Ick.

[mojoreef]

Ahhh its a great hobby. There are so many directions you can choose, so many thoeries and so many meathods, and from these you can take bits and peices from each or follow just one.

I beleive this choice falls under an overall philosophy. For me i wish to steer as far away from algae problems, disease, nasty bacteria that I run my reef with that in mind first. I feel that a refugium is just one location where Plankton and nekton thrive, your live rock will be a great have and producer of these to along with your sand bed. For my my Refugium is basically an algae filter that has become a breeding ground for pods, larvae, worms, stars and so on. Even though it is a fairly large refugium IMO it pails to the ammount that grows in my display.
I do not mind lossing a few or an amount of this to help with the export of nutrients and waste (which for me are evils) this is whay I also run a large UV. For me "knock on wood" this has keeped my tank disease and algae free, and I beleive it looks and grows pretty good.

Oh Dark one I have a question for thy. With the statement of as the tan matures that one should reduce the time of skimming. Is it not also true that as a tank ages it gathers more toxins, saturated elements and so on (I believe it is known as old tank syndrome) wouldnt this strengthen the arguement to skime more.?



Mike