People and coral do not mix, and never have, scientists said on Thursday in a report

[mjsandbe]

Interesting articles, sadly they are all negative though:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- People and coral do not mix, and never have, scientists said on Thursday in a report that shows humans started killing off coral reefs thousands of years ago...

Report: People and coral don't mix

Once colorful, Hawaiian coral reefs turning white
An expedition team is headed for the northwestern Hawaiian Islands to investigate whether coral in the area survived its first documented widespread bleaching, a phenomenon that could be linked to global warming.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science....ap/index.html

Report: Caribbean coral reefs down 80 percent
A new study paints a grim picture of the health of coral reefs across the Caribbean. In the past three decades, the amount of coral cover has dropped about 80 percent, according to researchers in the journal Science.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science...ral/index.html

[MontanaRocknReefer]

Well what makes it worst is not only can't I hear the turtles splashing but I can't see the fire flies blinking!!!

[Doug1]

I read the first article and while it does present some alarming data, it seems to point to humans as being the only culprit and ignores the fact that mother nature has contributed alot of time, esp if you look at it geological time scale.
I saw lists and lists of references to scientific papers written on these subjucts while researching answers to questions brought up in Eric B's coral biology class I took.Considering the myriad of data out there and various interpretations as to who ,what, and the why of these and so many other problems. I personally find these little alarmist, gloom and doom articles that point the finger to be very annoying.
I am by no means denying or belittling the gravity of the situation in this case, or so many other problems facing an ever overcrowded planet.
Its the oversimplified dismal tone of the writings that cause people to react and be sucked into someone agenda, because it makes us feel good to put that save the XXXXX sticker on our car, it shows we care.
I know most of the long term residents here have through their love of the reef hobby, grown past the wet furniture mentality and devote a lot of time to furthering their understanding of the reefs as a whole and their place in the overall scheme of thing. One of our goals on this board is to foster that same philosophy in the new comers, as well as save you money and fish.
I know for me personally , having a reef gave me an opportunity to teach my grandson about "ecology and environment" thru a living example, to counter balance the "Loggers are tree killers and planet rapers" (seriously, those are straight from lessons taught 2nd graders here ) philosophy that seems to pervade so much of the school system. It annoys me to no end to see such onesided agenda being pushed.
OK off my soapbox for now.

[rogerthmyers]

I agree with you Doug but....and yes there is a but....there are alot of people that don't know where these corals are from where any of the things that are in their tank are from, all of us are probably guilty of this in one way or another, that's the only way alot of us could get started, buying things in the stores, never knowing where it came from or how it got there....were all amazed by our hobby, but......yes maybe but we do have a hand in harming the reefs......then again we may be the ones that help save them some day......

[Doug1]

The aquarium industries share of the blame has been bandied about a lot.
We are actually a small part compared to the major , ecological and meteorlogical issues resulting from , heavey ag, industrailizatin,ozone layer degradation, etc. Since we represent the smallest amount of $ and influence we get to bear the brunt.
Compare the damage that is caused by dynamiting reefs to collect food fish to the damage done by cyanide capture for the pet trade. Both are deplorable tactics but there are organizations that are retraining collectors in more consciencious methods and intilling the idea of sustainable yield. large scale Tridacnid clam farming, benefits both the aquarium and food industries, they are prized as food in asia.
It seems that as a hobby based industry , changes are being made to lessen our impact, as opposed to the
big money ag, ind, petro etc who don't seem to get called to task often enough well the oil industry gets hammered after the fact when they screw up but the other factors generate so much $$$$$ and provide stuff we are trained to think we need so they get over

[tdwyatt]

Originally posted by Doug1
I read the first article and while it does present some alarming data, it seems to point to humans as being the only culprit and ignores the fact that Mother Nature has contributed ... esp if you look at it (in a) geological time scale.. ... It annoys me to no end to see such onesided agenda being pushed.

OK off my soapbox for now.

Thank you, Doug.

By the same token, there are many examples of widespread damage to reefs through anthromorphic change. However, events that are occuring now may just be one of the normal 10,000 year temp spikes in the geological time scale. This makes it no less damaging to the reefs nor bearable to us, but it still is one of the things that happens to reefs and the world in the big picture.

Three major extinctions in geological time, several lesser ones, all prior to the invention of the internal combustion machine, all quite devastating, all contributed to the darwinian selection process to give us the diversity we see in the reefs today. Much like the healthy periodic burning of climax forest floors, there is a normal cycle to the big picture.

This is NOT to say that we may not be hastening the events through industrialization, agricultural runoff, etc. My personal opinion is that we are quite egocentric to think that we have total control (either positive or negative) in the face of natural selection. This is not to make light of our impact; but that we may not be the answer (and thereby capable of correcting the problems) to the myriad of questions on the demise of the world's reefs.

btw, Doug, could you send me one of your "Save the XXXXX" stickers???

[Casey]

[Spanky]

Originally posted by tdwyatt
By the same token, there are many examples of widespread damage to reefs through anthromorphic change.

Would it help to known that we're in the process of launching a series of papers to show that people have had very little to do with the changes in the Caribbean reefs, especially the Keys reefs?
That most all of our problems have been a result of the diadema plague and exploding fish populations? Next in line would be lack of a good storm, and then climate change and weather in general.

Of course we're meeting with a lot of opposition from the doom and gloom coral huggers with this. They are still determined that all people should be killed off to save the reef. So since this is busting their bubble, so to speak, they are up in arms.

[tdwyatt]

Originally posted by Spanky
That most all of our problems have been a result of the diadema plague and exploding fish populations? Next in line would be lack of a good storm, and then climate change and weather in general.

yup, exactly my point.





btw, I thought of getting some bumperstickers printed up , but the printers said that they could only get "Save the xxx" on the sticker instead of 5 "x"s, and I feared reprisals from my straight-laced neighbors...


...I can't watch pornography, I don't even own a pornograph...

[Doug1]

Spanky you have nailed a really sore spot with me. Living here in the PNW I have seen the extremists on both sides of the "environmental" issues.
For the record i hug fuzzy animals on occasion, don't like clearcuts or big cities( large paved areas with to many people ), but this phrase says it all
" Of course we're meeting with a lot of opposition from the doom and gloom coral huggers with this. They are still determined that all people should be killed off to save the reef. So since this is busting their bubble, so to speak, they are up in arms."
All I can say is that all the extremists and their droids that feel that way, really want to demonsrate their faith and commitment by checking out in mass, thus saving the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rogerthmyers]

ONE really big question.......Are we as bad as they are for pointing the finger........I was at the beginning of this thread and I've sat and watched it up to now......why are all of you as quick as they are to point the finger.......we are better than that.....we do have a hand in this.....we can't deny that.....but it's a very very small hand...I understand that......again if the weather or climate or whatever it may be destroys the reefs, we may someday be the very people that save it.....now that's something to think about.....I don't think what we do is detrimental to the reefs but I don't think it's very good for it either.....it's kind of like sayng all of these people that have taken these animals out of the wild...and now there are laws saying certain animals can't be hunted or taken from the wild.....not that we kill fish....but someone hunts the fish that we buy.....again we have a very very small hand in a very big problem....Well today is my B-Day and I hope all you have a great weekend....

[Spanky]

Don't kid yourself, this is a bigger deal than I'm making it out to be and, truth be known, we're partly to blame for letting them run with this for as long as we have. But we needed to get our politics in place first.
They have more than their fair share of "scientists" on their side too and they are all busy busy trying to dig up every paper ever written to prove their case right now. Too late, we're not rank amateurs and have all the bases covered no matter which way they go.

We've got them on the run this time though. Funny thing is this. They are all crying foul, saying we didn't play fair and let them have a chance to review all our work before we presented it.

#1 Who the hell are "they"? since when are "they" part of our review process?

#2 Whaa whaa whaa, they don't like it when we play the same way they've been playing all this time. They've blind sided us every time. We've never been consulted or allowed to review anything they've come up with prior to them presenting it. As a matter of fact, it's costs tons of YOUR MONEY to run around and disprove all this crap they've come up with.

[Spanky]

Because Roger their truth is not based on fact - but based on agenda.
When you eliminate the agenda and deal with the real facts, then you can work on a solution.