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Old 12-28-2000, 06:18 PM   #1
horge
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New Article on Garlic


Finally posted the little sucker...

Garlic in the Marine Aquarium

Please tell me of any necessary corrections, alterations, (even font size/type/color) etc. that may occur to you. Any clear pics of ich-plagued fishies and explicit permission to use them with the article would also be appreciated, so I can finalize it and move it to its final location

your loyal hound,

horge

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Old 12-28-2000, 06:58 PM   #2
Hermit Up North
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Now that's information I've been looking for. Very well researched and written so even I can understand it. Thank you, I await further studies on this most useful, if not controversial, subject.
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Old 12-29-2000, 01:20 AM   #3
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Excellent work Horge I'm not sure you could simplify it much more than that without losing the intent. It definatly gives anyone interested in the alleged treatment a better understanding of how the process might work and a lot of refernces if one wishes to study further. I admit that its been a lot of years since I had to take formal science classes but I can pick out the high points. Having the wifes old microbiology text will help some. Very commendable job, hopefully others will take up the task, and research it in the context of this particular application

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Old 12-29-2000, 03:22 AM   #4
horge
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Hmmm.
Good thinking, Doug.

If I can't simplify the whole thing, then I should try to ADD a layman's summary in the Conclusion (Maybe that's what 'Conclusion' chapters are for...heheh).

I'm on it, and of course if it can be done elegantly you'll get credit for the article-restructuring tip

horge
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Old 12-29-2000, 08:19 AM   #5
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Horge,
Verrrrryyy interesting! Here are some thoughts, conclusions and questions upon my reading of the article: (consider this as a test of my cognitive abilities)
1) Allicin needs to be delivered directly to the parasitic organism.
2) The digestive process virtually eliminates the Allicin so that direct feeding is ineffective except for random traces that may enter the fish tissue and bloodstream before it reaches the gut. Does this mean my daily personal garlic pill does little but to give me bad breath?
3) Direct application to the water column is effective but could be harmful to the beneficial micro-organisms in the tank.
4) Use of natural fresh-squeezed garlic is preferable to garlic oil.
5) Quantification of dosage would be difficult and correct amount of dosage is uncertain.
6) Would it be preferable to treat the fish in a Q-Tank with garlic in the water column to avoid potential damage to the tank ecosystem?
7) How about application of full strength juice from freshly-crushed garlic to the fish's exterior, either in a small container or directly applying to the fish out of water?
8) Does the fish's slime coat retard or prevent absorption of the garlic into the fish's tissues? I would assume the slime coat is absent or diminished on the symptomatically affected areas of the fish.
9) Is the Allicin able to penetrate the C. irritans in the cystic stage?
10) Is the name "Alice" an etymological derivative of "Allicin"?

As for pics of Ich Infested Ichthies, I hope I never have the opportunity to take such pictures!
Dick
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Old 12-29-2000, 09:42 AM   #6
horge
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Hi FD!

1) Allicin needs to be delivered directly to the parasitic organism?

It would be more accurate to say it needs to ARRIVE at the parasite somehow.

2) The digestive process virtually eliminates the Allicin so that direct feeding is ineffective except for random traces that may enter the fish tissue and bloodstream before it reaches the gut. Does this mean my daily personal garlic pill does little but to give me bad breath?

Digestive juices seek to PREVENT new formation of allicin, and sometimes fail to do a thorough job. But if pre-formed allicin (in the mouth as you chew?) enters the gut, it seems free to dance any gut-parasites to death. From the gut it may enter the bloodstream.

The minute allicin comes in contact with your blood, it rapidly gets spent wrecking your hemoglobin. No biggie if you're over a 100lbs in weight with healthy bone marrow and several pints of non-anemic blood in you, --it's just a waste of allicin. But other benefits of garlic (lowering BP, etc.) can also stem from byproducts of allicin and other more durable garlic compounds, so you get some of those no matter what the blood does. The blunt skippy is that only garlic's antibiotic prowess is largely lost once its active ingredients enter the bloodstream, because the lead actor is lost (the supporting cast is not without talent, though).

3) Direct application to the water column is effective but could be harmful to the beneficial micro-organisms in the tank.
Half right. The water severely dilutes the good stuff --I was just saying that it might seem to be analogous to the topical application most research recommends. Of course those researchers weren't thinking about topical applications underwater. If the dosage is too weak, dilution renders it wasted --but if it is strong enough to withsatnd dilution, your good aquarium bacteria can take a serious hit.

4) Use of natural fresh-squeezed garlic is preferable to garlic oil.
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

5) Quantification of dosage would be difficult and correct amount of dosage is uncertain.
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!
It would be sooooooo easy for someone with lab access and funding to find the lethal concentration of allicin vs. Cryptocaryon iiritans. It's the first tentative step towards finding a dosage against ich.

6) Would it be preferable to treat the fish in a Q-Tank with garlic in the water column to avoid potential damage to the tank ecosystem?

That approach is possible. Keep in mind that both feeding and TreatmentTank-ing both expose certain parts of the fish to potential damage if you overdose (the liver for feeding and the gills for TreatmentTank-ing). If its mostly a surface malady like ich, you can TreatmentTank the fish. If it's internal, then you definitely feed. If it's just preventative therapy, then
feed --no need to stress the beast by fishing it out each time, haha. Just getting the fish into a treatment tank can be more stress (to both you and the fish)than its worth.

7) How about application of full strength juice from freshly-crushed garlic to the fish's exterior, either in a small container or directly applying to the fish out of water?

For a surface malady, THAT would be best.
Precise targeting, and direct delivery.
Bu-uuut... if therapy has to be over several days, taking the fish out just once is a pain. Taking it out several times?

8) Does the fish's slime coat retard or prevent absorption of the garlic into the fish's tissues? I would assume the slime coat is absent or diminished on the symptomatically affected areas of the fish.

The mucus would pose no great difficulty to allicin. Other beneficial components of garlic may be less able to traverse mucus or indeed any other similar barriers. Also, traumatized areas actually encourage increased local mucus production to compensate for damage to the skin.

9) Is the Allicin able to penetrate the C. irritans in the cystic stage?

There is every indication (based on the tissue models used by Miron et.al.) that it is able to. The fact that the 'cyst' often jumps ship shows just how peeved it gets.

10) Is the name "Alice" an etymological derivative of "Allicin"?

You must be living in some kind of allicin wonderland

Hehe,
horge




[This message has been edited by horge (edited 12-29-2000).]
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Old 12-29-2000, 10:19 AM   #7
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Fascinating....thanks, Horge! I wish I knew half as much as I understand about biochemistry!
It is very reassuring to know that my daily dose of Nature's Own Garlic protects me against Ich and internal parasites!
Great job!
Dick
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Tags
internal parasite , marine aquarium , slime coat



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