Limitations of DSB's - Page 12

NewReefer · 05-05-2003, 11:29 AM

YEP I agree! Mechanical filtration work wonderful, if you stick with the Husbandry.

SAT · 05-05-2003, 11:37 AM

The problem with this discussion is we're not drawing any useful conclusions. It simply doesn't help to say: Yeah, a DSB is good but after 5 years or so it may or may not clog up and there's nothing we can recommend to affect that.

With that kind of answer, Scott's solution becomes the obvious one, and IMO DSB's are too useful to simply throw out.

We need to be able to describe the conditions where this will happen. I think Spanky is generically right animal-system-husbandry. The trouble is, that's not specific enough.

At this point there should be enough DSBs out there for a study. Maybe if all TRT members with a DSB would measure their anoxic zone and describe how they maintain their tanks?

NewReefer · 05-05-2003, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SAT

At this point there should be enough DSBs out there for a study. Maybe if all TRT members with a DSB would measure their anoxic zone and describe how they maintain their tanks?

I do like the idea of having an Isolated DSB, and at times add mechanical filtering of some degree, also isolated, along with good husbandry, it is a must. Now how do we actually measure our Anoxic Zone?

NewReefer · 05-05-2003, 11:56 AM

Also this brings up another question, FOWLR is one system that may require more Husbandry, depending on the fishes in one closed system. Many uses a little substrate and lots of mechanical filtration. Now on the other hand when I switched to a reef system, I decided I would stick to reef type fish only and not so many compared to corals. I would think filtration regardless would be different due to the live stock, thus incorporation a DSB type system may be more beneficial to the replicated ecosystem. When rising fish I'd say the system would require more attention and husbandry because of the obvious reasons, where maybe a DSP would be over bearing on a husband to keep up (thinking of a system with a large variety of fishes).

Spanky · 05-05-2003, 12:07 PM

Stuart

Here's the way I see it, no punches pulled.

You've been sold a bill of goods. It's this whole "warm and fuzzy" I've got a little slice of the ocean in my house and it functions just like the ocean and if it doesn't it's my fault cause I didn't add enough sand bed critters and blah blah blah.

People are asking a aquarium to function and do things that even the ocean don't do.

at least in the environment and limitations of what you can do with a aquarium.

Why DSB's

Because the dang thing works! It's the greatest marketing tool ever invented to make money on this hobby. Someone can go out, set up a tank with a DSB, and in a short period of time =(while they still have their momentum and are in that proverbial spending spree) without having to wait a long time like they used to = spend a fortune on corals and such and have almost instant gratification and a fair amount of success. DBS's will hide/mask/CYA a multitude of sins. Everything from bad water quality, mixtures of corals, bad husbandry, you name it. It was marketed as the newest when it's the oldest. If you were told up front that you would still have to do maintenance, only it would be a little harder and more difficult, instead of being led down this path of plug - play - and forget, would you still have done it? If you realized that adding all the sand bed critters just adds to the bio-load of the system? That no matter what you do, you're only working with a closed system? That a DSB is really just a bigger rock? that doesn't shed detritus but stores it.

The dang things work! where else in this entire world can you sell sand for a buck a pound? rock for $10-15 a pound? Believe me corals are a heck of a lot easier to handle and ship than fish and one heck of a lot more profitable. The hobby has just shifted from fish and mechanics to something else to make money. Oh don't forget those box charges.

Now you're being told it's not end product detritus but heavy metals. BLAH every four years tear it down and start over. Again just think, you're asking a aquarium to do what the ocean can't even do.

Why would you want to take a random sample of DSB's, they are the oldest and have been around the longest?

Think Tank = made you think! LOL

NewReefer · 05-05-2003, 12:24 PM

Maybe, after several years we could remove some of the sand very deep and replace it but how could that happen with a DSB in the main tank? It could wipe out everything!

Spanky · 05-05-2003, 12:59 PM

On another thought. Why is there such a hard time comprehending "end product detritus"?

Have any of you guys even watched the Discovery Channel when they take a submersible into one of the abyss? How they can only use their lights for close-ups because when they pan out it's like trying to use the headlights of a car in a blizzard white-out?

All that bacterial flock and detritus is coming down in tons from the surface.

Scott, it's easy to do with a shallow sand bed. Just stir it up or vacuum it out, etc. BUT with a shallow sand bed you don't have the larger margin of error/CYA that you get with a DSB.

NewReefer · 05-05-2003, 01:07 PM

So in theroy the ocean will eventyally over Eons become clogged up? The DSB will be full!

I'm in the working of moving my DSB to a remote loaction, Like a second sump just for the dsb.

SAT · 05-05-2003, 01:09 PM

Jerel,

I'm not sure I can agree with the conspiracy theory... as near as I can tell the people most able to sell DSBs (LFS owners and professional aquarium maintainers) are still busily selling trickle filters and crushed coral.

Those systems work well enough to sell an awful lot of live rock and coral. If some the corals die they can sell more. Besides, if they do bring more people into the hobby using DSB's, that's good for all of us. How long do you think the current infrastructure would survive if only the die-hards were keeping saltwater aquaria?

The thing is, as you said, DSB's do work. And they add interest. And at least some of them have done so for a considerable amount of time. I just want to know how to make my DSB last a long time too, and I'm not ready to accept as fate that they'll have be ripped out after 5 years.

Spanky · 05-05-2003, 01:22 PM

LOL made you think!

I don't fool with DSB's much around here, but other people do. There's examples where it's the only thing that works, take studying worms for instance.

OK, that was meant to be funny. You would use them on squid too.

You can still clean them, just siphon out a section at a time and replace it with new. That's the easiest way. Problem with that is for some reason it seems you always get a cyno bloom in that spot for a while.

NewReefer · 05-05-2003, 01:23 PM

It can last and last way longer, I've found several people with DSB up over ten years, good husbandry goes a long ways, which would include inout/output control!

SAT · 05-05-2003, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
LOL made you think!

We really need a rude smiley.

SAT · 05-05-2003, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NewReefer
It can last and last way longer, I've found several people with DSB up over ten years, good husbandry goes a long ways, which would include inout/output control!

This is what I'm trying to get to. The problem is "good husbandry" covers an awful lot of ground and means different things to different people. If you want to change the way people manage DSB's you have to be a lot more specific.

NewReefer · 05-05-2003, 01:50 PM

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/sh...threadid=17521

mojoreef started this topic last week, so maybe we need to move over to that discussion.

Geoff · 05-05-2003, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NewReefer
So in theroy the ocean will eventyally over Eons become clogged up? The DSB will be full!

is some of this solved by plate tectonics? as some parts of the floor are subversed they are removing end detritus. while the expansion rifts are creating new floor for more end detritus to be deposited on. as the Eons turn, the greatest garbage disposal ever is cleaning up all of the detritus.

once again we are not thinking in closed systems.

at some point end detritus needs to be removed. whether or not it is by removing the DSB every X # years or by huge amounts of water flow and collecting vats that will be emptied. these are limitations that we as hobbiests need to understand and accept if we want to remain in this hobby for decades. there will never be a leave and forget system. i figured i would remove parts of the DSB from time to time. one of the reasons my sump is divided.

G~