Is there a way to make a DSB work?

[Spanky]

In fairness to DSB's and the people that love them.
Let's put our collective minds together and see what we can come up with to make them work.
Is there a certain amount of maintenance that needs to be done?
Maybe a combination of critters? fish?
How about bio-loads? circulation?
Different sand grain sizes?

If you have a DSB or thinking about setting one up, what is your criteria?

Spanks

[Casey]

I cant wait to see the what you guys say I really have my doubts about dsbs in a closed system working long term

[galleon]

You're baaaaaaaaaaaaad....

[Spanky]

Now think about it.
It might just be a combination of the wrong methodology. Even the way they are set up from the beginning.

It's worth talking/thinking about. There are a lot of people that have them. Rather than tearing their tanks apart, let's see if there's a way to salvage it.

[galleon]

"Let's put our collective minds together and see what we can come up with to make them work."

OK...ok...I got it. Take all your sand. Siphon it out. Do this only once. Now, you know the black garbage bags? Put it in one of those, preferrably one that has the tie built into the top of the bag. Next (carefully! sand is heavy!) heave it up (some explicatives usually help this part along) on to your shoulder. Walk it to the nearest playground, dump in the sandbox: you now have the most useful DSB possible!

[Casey]

ok ok convince me not to do a bare bottom

[Spanky]

Casey, nope.

Personally, I think they are set up wrong from the getgo, but that's neither here nor there.

Let's work on salvaging DSB's that are set up according to the recipe.

What should someone do if they start noticing cyano in spots? a little hair algae around the base of the rocks where they are touching the sand?

[RWD]

Great topic Jerel! I hope people take this topic seriously because there are many of us out here that really thought we were doing the right thing a few years ago and set up a dsb properly and now are suffering from old tank syndrom. I hope there is a way because I do not want to go through all the trouble of siphoning 400 lbs of sand out of my tank if there is a way to prevent this.

3-4 years ago when dsb's were the rage and considered by many as the "next best thing since sliced bread", there were many posts saying how great and easy they were to set up and how little needed to be done to mantain them. To be totaly honest I can't recall ANYONE saying that you had to vaccume them and eventually replace them after a certain amount of time. NOW you tell me LOL. Bob

[Geoff]

would adding larger borrowing critters help in keeping the DSB active longer. lets say wrasses. those that burrow for defense or sleep, and not for predatory reasons, that would deplete the DSB of its critters.

G~

[Spanky]

Originally posted by SteveNichols
"....and don't forget sleep Steve . "
As you know, I am not one of the experts around here, anywhere on anything for that matter. so
take this as my experience and what I have "learned".

As far as I'm concerned that makes you over qualified for the job.

Originally posted by SteveNichols
As you know there is limited availibility comercially of the bugs in question. I doubt the diversity is the same, thus the searching for different samples from friends and swaps.

These systems are trying their darndest to be bacterial driven, no matter what you do. So here's some food for thought.
Let's say you need a series of 8 critters working in that sand bed to process it the way it's described. Would taking one of the critters out of that series, skip a step and allow the bacterial processes to take over. How about if you take two or three of the critters out of the formula? At what point do you not have enough critter processes in place and the DSB reverts back to bacterial processes only?

Originally posted by SteveNichols
See the earlier part of this thread where they talk about the "encroachment of the anoxic zone. According to the way i read it, this is basically inevitable, just how well the bed is maintained determines the length of time until repair is needed.

Again, isn't bacterial driven what you're trying to keep from happening in a DSB? As it becomes more bacterial driven it squeezes the critters up higher and higher until they can only exist in the top zone that's receiving O2 from water circulation passing over it. How do you avoid that?

[NewReefer]

First of all if they are set up properly, then you must consider bio-load. I think one thing that would if anything increase the life of a DSB would be to consider what you put into your tank.
That said first I'd start with fish stock. Instead of maxing your fish load according to the size of your tank, why not add fish according to the size of your DSB! This might create a rule of thumb of something like half that of a BB-FOWLR?

I'll stop at this point.

BTW Spanky BITE!

[Spanky]

Okee dokee

Scott, here's some food for thought for you.

How many critters do you really need to keep that DSB functioning properly, and what kind of bio-load is that adding to your closed system?
Do you reach a point of diminishing return, where all your system will support is a DSB and the critters it takes to make it work properly?

Serve!

[NewReefer]

Ouch! Was that an ACE?
I'd say 10 or 12!

LOL

Ok Key is running properly, If you mean how much it takes to run it as properly we can humanly do so, the way I remember way back when Dr. Ron explained, it took some time for the system to function properly, depending on the size of the bed and first stocking and the rate of critters growth per each stocked type on it's particular particle sized sand grain. Then it was in LIVING State of Fluxation, meaning depending on the load (more food to eat) would determine the growth rate of Fauna. If food supply was lessened then they would die off(more waste). If the system was at maximum would it only support itself, well from what I've learned so far I'd say no, it still needs a food & nutrient source and even with die off that source wouldn't be enough. I don't think them eating their dead would keep them alive until a new food source was available. What is the limit of critters or how much is needed to maintain that DSB? In time it will keep some balance eventually, at a peak but afterwards, that is where husbandry comes into play.

great...........here we go again..........but ill try
i think the key to keeping a functioning dsb will include 2 parts. #1 repacement, every 2 yrs or so replace 1/2 of the ls....#2 cleaning the dsb......taking a siphon and helping it out....in the ocean the curents are repeatly replacing and cleaning the dsb..

[Spanky]

Originally posted by SteveNichols
Well, one part of proprer maintenance is adding critters because of extinction. Don't stir Don't fold, spindle or mutilate.

I remember that too. That was part of the formula presented by the DSB guru.

Now let me see if I have this straight. You can't stir it. But you have to buy all these critters to stir it.