How does reefing affect your conscience?

[Doug1]

OK since the issue has been raised, I was wondering how people falt that their participation in the reefkeeping hobby.
Do you feel a twinge of guilt because unlike puppies,kittens and squirrels,these critters dont normally breed in our neighborhoods. They are mostly removed from there homes in the sea.(Spanks dont count cause he's got SW squirells and the keys right out his door )
Has participation in the reef hobby made you more aware of the fragility of the world in general and reefs in particular.
Do you feel guilt when animals in your care die?
Have you become motivated to try and learn more about the reefs as a whole or are you happy to enjoy your wet furniture?
Has it made you stop eating seafood?

[salt creepette]

I kept FW tanks before, and when I got involved in the SW hobby, I wanted to go into it with as much knowledge as I could because I didnt want to subject any creatures to a miserable existence. I have a soft heart when it comes to animals. so i went to the library and read two books, then purchased two more books to use as reference, and of course I got online and read as much as I could from reputable sources (I hope).

I think that reefkeeping is beneficial because it boosts people's awareness about the creatures that live in the sea. The more we know about them, the more compassion and care we will have for them and their habitats. Hopefully that will lead to programs becoming established to protect their habitats and environments.

Of course I feel guilty when something in my care perishes. Like I said too, I kinda dont wanna eat seafood anymore cuz I dont want to support fishing and other things that go on in the ocean that contribute to the destruction of it. Of course, some of the capture methods used to catch display fish are destructive too, but that's why you have to ask the lfs where they get their stuff from and how was it captured (although I have my doubts as to if they really know, or are just saying what you want to hear).

All in all, I think keeping SW creatures in captive is beneficial and although a somewhat selfish hobby, the good it does in boosting awareness overcomes the negative aspects. Besides, if we completely destroy the ocean's reefs, at least some of it will be preserved in our tanks! I just hope it doesnt come to that.

[Doug1]

Points well taken, I got into the hobby back in 75 and I admit that ego drove a lot of my obsession , I loved hearing people ooooohhhhh and aawwwwww when they saw salt water fish, becuase most people thought it was nearly impossible to keep them alive, or felt that replacing losses of difficult animals was just par for the course.
In the 5 odd years I have been into reefs, I have come to look at the whole thing in a much better light. Another positive aspect is that now that my grandkids are in school, I can use the reef tank as a living class room and give them a better perspective on the stuff they see on tv, plus it helps to counter the rabid green biase so common in the schools these days
I honestly try to discourage people from starting a reef, by telling them the horror stories and how much it costs, but the ones that go ahead I have spent the last 4.5 yrs on this board trying to help out the new reefers, provide an antidote to ignorant or greedy stores that sell ya anything and then leave you hanging.
EDUCATION is the best defense for all of us, the hobby, industry, the whole 9 yards, and thats what I have dedicated myself to.
And for the record, I love seafood, sushi, sashimi its all good, though I can't abide Ika(squid) never could develop a liking for it, and eating seafood strengthens the bond
I wonder what the clam lovers would think about the dull ugly ones being grown out and sold as food ?

[hayday]

i constantly tell my kids that it's not what you do, it's how you do it.

yes, there is an incredibly destructive history in our quest to maintain our little pieces of the reef in our little square boxes of water but i think we've been making tremendous strides in educating both ourselves and other people. we hobbyists often advocate aqua-cultured to wild-caught and there are now more and more critters we can get and it doesn't destroy the already fragile reefs. cyanide is another sad part of our past yet it seems that this collection method is becoming less common (i hope). think of how many of our friends have been wowed by our reef tanks and actually listen and respect the efforts we put into it, and many of them "get it." they go to the major aquariums- baltimore, shedd, new england, monterey- and they look at the reefs a little differently and they appreciate them a little more and it was because we took the time to explain the complexities of the reef.

do i feel guilty? sometimes, but i try to honor my conscience as much as possible and do the right things as often as i can- even when no one is watching.

-hayday

[cyberchef]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Tree hugger... Not a tree hugger..

PETA or not a PITA...

SPCA freakazoid or NO SPCA welcome in my house....

Extreme left wing... Extreme right wing... Ooops I can't fly...

I'm going to stay clear of this one...











BTW what is a conscience ... Kinda like losing your mind... Can't lose what you don't already have...

[Doug1]

Come on Don, I think most people take a midlle ground, hopefully based on common sense and a well developed sense of ethics. I suppose of one chose to play devils advocate you could support any position one cares to take.' Look at yourself, you are involved in the display aspect of the hobby but working on tank raised frags and sharing with fellow reefers.
OK you don't have a large growout concern but you have a start. Think of what would happen if everyone active on this board fragged and doubled their livestock, then shared the excess

Its a start

[cyberchef]

Doug have you ever had the "pleasure" of having to deal with the SPCA freakazoids???? We used to breed parrots, so I have more than my fair share of dealings with animals living and dieing. And some of the times there is nothing you can do but deal with it. But having the SPCA gastapo called on you is another form of H*LL all in itself. Did you know that there are no rules/regulations for the regulation of the SPCA? Trust me coming home to TV news cameras and Sherriffs cars is not fun... No offense, but I'm highly doubt I'll post again to this thread.

[cyberchef]

Actually I lied, I meant for this post to preceed the other...

Originally posted by Doug1
Come on Don, I think most people take a midle ground, hopefully based on common sense and a well develped sense of ethics.

Actually, from my experiences, most people do not take the middle ground. Especially with something they are copmpassionate about. Plus you might be amazed at the lack of common sense that is used.

Look at yourself, you are involved in the display aspect of the hobby but working on tank raised frags and sharing with fellow reefers.

Actually I'm already working on the next level...

OK you don't have a large growout concern but you have a start. Think of what would happen if everyone active on this board fragged and doubled their livestock, then shared the excess

This hobby would become a lot more affordable..,.

[BuckWheat]

To hear about how Plastic is killing off most of our sw fish hits me hard, off the California coast.. there is a ratio of two thirds plastic particles to one third plankton. Plastic last forever and will eventually destroy most of our costal life. You ask me how I feel about my SW/Reef tank? Yes, I acknowledge we purchase rock, sand, fish and corals from providers which capture all this from the ocean and more is being grown in captivity and this is great but only because of our awareness that we've even attempted to raise and breed fish in captivity, corals etc. I hope somehow through the people who spend so much money on this hobby, that some of it goes to research and development. I hope that this research actually helps people discover what is going on in our oceans and maybe we can prevent from destroying it and actually help ocean life. I think at some point we help more than we destroy, being in this hobby! I hate to loose any life form for sure, but the learning and understanding we achieve from all this hopefully out weighs our demands on it and eventually help save the very life we keep!

[dark horge]

Coming from someone who lives where most of your fish are collected...


It really doesn't have to descend to anthropomorphizing your fish ---awarding them 'human rights'.

Just realize that every fish, invert and especially piece of live rock represents a reduction of the wild reef. The dollar prices may be low, but the environmental price paid is cumulative.

Make the most of the livestock and live rock you purchase. Letting it go to waste through carelessness or indifference is less about abusing one fish or one invert. It's about abusing the wild reef.




horge

[skattabrain]

well said dark horge, well said.

it's all about waste, indifference and making poor choices.

and the way it's going, i see no reason to buy sps corals from the wild anymore ( call North Star )... fish will reproduce because collecting them by hand... even cyanide, doesn't come within a fraction of what poor fishing methods destroy... of course there are those that reproduce slower then others.

if anything, i do feel guilt over the live rock and wish there was a better way. maybe next time i'll go the aquaculture route for rock.

i say, it's a great thing we do... of course there are the destructive, self serving in this world.... but they are everywhere in everything.

there will always be those that simply throw cash around to collect material things (it's a shame they view this particluar thing as "material")... they usually don't hang around long... most people in this are "IN THIS". when i was in this hobby 5 years ago, i tore down my tank and gave away everything to friends are other reef keepers... i don't consider this wasteful.

and while we're on this, my lfs has this yellow tang (not for sale)... this fish when it sees a person will go to the surface and not budge until you "pet" it.
does this sound like an animal that is being abused and is unhappy? and tang police, it's a relatively small square tank... which goes to show that "creation" isn't a machine, programmed to behave a certain way and only that way... it's a bit more wonderful then that.

[Doug1]

While I have not been a commercial breeder of animals, I know people that have and am aware of the results of do gooder groups gone bad, as well as having seen first hand groups of PETA activists interfering with legitamate hunting activities.
Perhaps I should have clarified my middle ground statement, Most people like animals and don't encourage their abuse but don't give it alot of thought until they are confronted with it in person. SPCA and PETA have gotten good at sensationalizing cases and appealing to the warm fuzzy puppy lover in us all. I think that most people would agree with their stated goals of fair and ethical treatment of animals, but most do not see the hidden agendas behind the public face. Watching th animal cop show on ANiomal Planet the other night , they confiscated 49 fox terriers from a house where the owner had recently passed away. It was mot a pretty site, and over and over you are being bombarded with these images and comments about animal breeders. It reminds me of the tactics used by the anti gun groups, sensationalize isolated instance and hammer it over and over. Mean while no one mentions that the millions of other dog/gun owners didnt beat their dogs or run amok on a shooting spree

[Junkzoo]

quess i run in the middle on this one,,,i eat fish,but am not a fisherman....i would prefer just to sit inna boat, and cast a bare rubber plug all day,,,
i've "freed " lobsters from ancient, forgotten traps in the Keys
(no law breakin' here,,,these traps have no floats,,been lost fer a long time) aand have gone to Islamorada Fish Co. to pick up a few tails fer lunch,,,

back to reef keepin,,,
i do not have a problem per se,,,,,
but the problem i DO have is shops selling livestock that has a poor at best chance to make it any length of time in captivity,,
just to turn a buck,,,
a LFS i managed many moons ago,,,,a employee came into the back office , and asked the owner,,,,what does our Blue ribbon eel eat,,,someone wants to know,,,
the owner said,guppies shrimp, frozen food etc...
after the kid left, i told the owner,,,,"you know that the Blue Ribbon has not eaten for use so far!
owner said,,,ya, but they sell,,,,,
later on when i co-owned a LFS,,,we made it a point to carry pretty much ONLY hand collected fish that would/could be kept by the average fish keeper,,,
and only did we order "tougher requirement " livestock for people that we knew the people could care for any special needs the livestock required,,,,
captive breeding of corals/inverts/fish etc. have made me feel better about the hobby lately,,,,
the last week when i was diving in the Keys, i saw the beauty of what was down there,and not as things with a dollar sign attached to it , like i had in the past, when i used to collect in the "old days"
bottom line: i believe that if someone cares for the things in their tanks, as any other pet. and does not purchase something just to have it,,knowing full well they can't care for it properly, or buying something that has no right ever being sold as aquarium trade fodder,,,that mades me truly sad,,,,
i remeber in the old days , as a kid, what was in use for SW fishkeeping,and the livestock available,,,and compare it to the current hobby norms,,,it blows my mind,,,
not to mention, the leaps and bounds we've had as a hobby ,as far as what we could maintain in our tanks,,,,
SPS or coral keeping in the 60's-70's? ya right!fragging?
captive fish breeding? never ,,,back then,,
i think we've come a long way in the "hobby",,i have no problem with it now,,,only towards the good side of it though,,,,
drugged fish, and fish/livestock that has slim to none chance for the average fishkeeper,and dhops that still sell them to turn a buck,,,thats the problem i have,,,,
hope this was kept in the subject line of the thread,,,,,on some topics , i tend to ramble,,,,

[Spanky]

If I don't get to count - does that mean I can say anything I want and get away with it?

Here's goes anyway.

As the person that writes the rules and decides who gets what and how much of it, I suppose I have a different outlook on this side. Keeping in mind, that once something is harvested, it's not coming back.

That does not mean that a animal that's in my care will not receive the best care that I can possibly give it, because I do. Once you name them, there's no turning back.

[Junkzoo]

Originally posted by Spanky

that once something is harvested, it's not coming back.

i've heard you say that in person Jerel,,,,,
it burned in my brain,,,,