Are waterchanges really needed?

07-14-2003, 07:21 PM

now before i get flamed i just want to say that in my 1 1/2 yrs with my 55 gal i have never had a fish die except for carpet surfing or getting sucked up into ph....
but i have not done a waterchange in 8 months, i top off about 5 gals a week.....add calcium, essential elements and iodine...... my feeding is moderate....i will say that i do get a deterious build up everynow and then so i spray it off and let my skimmer do its job......

Spanky · 07-14-2003, 07:33 PM

If you're just talking fish, there are some bio-chemicals that would build up and inhibit growth. Other than that, they're not that picky.

07-14-2003, 07:40 PM

okay so what your saying is waterchanges in a fo system isnt needed...well how about a full blown reef? the tank in particular i am talking about is a reef tank......

Spanky · 07-14-2003, 07:46 PM

That would depend on too many things. The most obvious would be the state and condition of any CaCO3 material in the system. Is it new, how much organics does it have to process, how long has it been doing it, is it self cleaning or sinking, etc. What exports are in place. Overall husbandry of the system. Bio-load on the system. on and on

Not an easy answer to give.

Mkelly · 07-14-2003, 08:42 PM

I realize in light of my recent posts and relitive newness to salt I'm probably hard to take serious however it was explained to me thus..

The animals you keep come from a place where they have millions of gallons of clean water flowing past them all the time, the best you can do is get as close to that as possiable.

Thats why I believe in water changes. And in light of whats going on in my tank now I figure it cant hurt.

galleon · 07-14-2003, 08:45 PM

Mkelly, well said.

07-14-2003, 08:52 PM

very well said.... and in no way am i disputing that... my rebutle to that is there are lots of rule that can be bent in this hobby... there are very few constants (from what i have seen anyway) so i guess prove to me that these need to be done.....oh i am taking my dsb out so now i more than likely will have to do water changes atleast everynow and then.......but if we keep up on our adding of the "essentail" elements and help the critters, are these needed?

Mkelly · 07-14-2003, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mnreefman
very well said.... and in no way am i disputing that... my rebutle to that is there are lots of rule that can be bent in this hobby... there are very few constants (from what i have seen anyway) so i guess prove to me that these need to be done.....oh i am taking my dsb out so now i more than likely will have to do water changes atleast everynow and then.......but if we keep up on our adding of the "essentail" elements and help the critters, are these needed?

Whats a DSB? I gave up abbreviations when I got out of the Navy

In light of the health of your tank I would have to say I agree with you.

In light of the fact of life in the ocean which we try to replicate and the eviroment they come from I can't see a reason not to change the water

Looks like it's one of those things where if it aint broke don't fix it. /Shrug

07-14-2003, 09:05 PM

dsb deep sand bed....
also i my system has a fefugum and i am adding a sump.....my water gets clean via a skimmer and macro alge and over 200 lbs of or in the system, so essenitally clean water does get put in my system

Mkelly · 07-14-2003, 09:14 PM

Can we make a distinction between clean and fresh? Are they one in the same? I really don't know I'm not a chemist but I bet we have a few hanging around here someplace that could answer this. I'm willing to bet there are some molecular changes and issues going on that should be adressed by adding fresh water.

07-14-2003, 09:27 PM

in waterchanges your introducing depleted cal, iodine and other essential elemnts as well as getting rid of some excess nutients no4 and so on....but if you have the "system" to get rid of these, and your doseing the "essentail" elements is a waterchange nessacary

Mkelly · 07-14-2003, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mnreefman
[b]in waterchanges your introducing depleted cal, iodine and other essential elemnts ]

This I don't agree with. If you pretreat before adding water, which you should to keep the parameters and avoid the nastyness of chemical swings.

Though I do hear rumors of guys deliberately droping salinity to induce spawning. How true this is I dunno. It's very new to me.

Quote:

Originally posted by mnreefman

as well as getting rid of some excess nutients no4 and so on....but if you have the "system" to get rid of these, and your doseing the "essentail" elements is a waterchange nessacary

So how can ya loose?

I agree you are right if the Bio systems are working correctly then theoretically you don't need to change water. But again look at what your trying to replicate. There is so much that goes into a drop of water. Then you have evaporation and rain and that cycle never ends. You made a very telling statement earlier when you said rules are bendable in this hobby. I disagree, this is a very presice science with a huge mix of chemestry. I find it very ironic all the stuff we have to add to reproduce a " natural " enviroment.

Look at your lawn or if you garden your veggies and flowers. Look at them during a dry spell no matter how much you water they just kinda hang on, but let it rain for 15 minutes and ya get new growth and buds etc. Something magical in rain

Or new fresh water.

Geoff · 07-14-2003, 10:22 PM

i think of it this way. you can either spend 15min. doing a water change to get the correct balance of trace elements and remove some of the dominant toxins, or you can spend 2+ hours testing your water for all of the expensive additives you have in your closet (you do have tests for every one of those additives, right). just to get the water in your water column to mimic NSW. i see it as a no-brainer.

my .02,

G~

07-14-2003, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mkelly

r You made a very telling statement earlier when you said rules are bendable in this hobby. I disagree, this is a very presice science with a huge mix of chemestry. I find it very ironic all the stuff we have to add to reproduce a " natural " enviroment.

you cant bend the rules?????
okay fw dips, does this happen out in the ocean? does fw exit fall from the sky?
why is it that some people who have a cheap set up ($) wise can have a great tank and no problems, but yet the most precise people can have a hard time..

tdwyatt · 07-15-2003, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Geoff
i think of it this way. you can either spend 15min. doing a water change to get the correct balance ... or you can spend 2+ hours testing your water for all of the expensive additives...

... i see it as a no-brainer.

yup.

Conservative elements (the 7 big ones in seawater) get skewed over timie,. Water changes prevent this, as well as removing whatever detritus you remove with your storm/clean up. Skimming and export are not the total answers for maintaining the tank long term. The DSB discussiion still makes me think there is a limit on the age of the sand bed, changing water and occasional detritus removal extends that limit. Fish will gradually adjust to skewed water conditiions, Corals require very specific conditioins for calcification (and a few other respiration functions) to occur, some more than others.

goes back to the water change vs. 2 to 3 hrs of titration and testing, you decide.

Even better, open system or semi open system...

clean bottom open system would be ideal, don't have to depend on much for filtration at all, just continuous water changes.

I am surprise Chris (Galleon) hasn't chirpped up in a big way on this one...