Are waterchanges really needed?

[aqua maniac]

i agree w/ steave, our goal as fish/reef keepers is not to creat an envoriment that is at the acceptable level but that that is at the best we can make it; water changes are a very reliable, inexpensive (assuming your water is cheap), and despite wat the "new" products say, very proven method to creat a healthy envirment so that the annimals in our care will not only surive but thrive.

as i have said, i credit my water change regime to my succes and continuation in the hobby. any body who hasnt done a water change in a while i would like to hear/see them try a few it for a few mounths, record there results, and see if there corles and fish are doing better (more color, better growth, etc). my water changes arnt tarably big (10% weekly) and they take about 30-40 minutes a week (if im not cleaning filter or something) per tank- and i maintain 11 tanks! i realy dont find it a chore at all and i highly recomed them to any one. as wasabi said, those arnt the only things that foul our systems and some times its very obscure things we cant test for (at least as hobbiest)!

[tdwyatt]

Originally posted by trodder
I think most everyone has taking me the wrong way... What I'm saying is that when things get out of the norm do a water change but if all is in the norm and more than a month goes by and you have not done a water change don't do it just because you were told to do a scheduled water change... ...I have not done a water change on that tank since. That was done 9 months ago. I still do not see a need to change the water any time soon. They have continued to thrive.

Hmmmm...

such a shot period of time in terms of how long corals and fish live.

On an oceanic scale, the water is continuously replenished/changed due to the sheer volume of the ocean, the continuous water cycles, and the various sinks via abyssial removal and oceanic subduction, etc, in SPITE of anthropomorphic influences. The buildup of minerals, heavy metals, organic complexes, etc in substrates associated with end-detrital buildup can be delayed, even stayed for extended periosds of time with judicious use of water changes and controlled import/export of nutrients. Many many factors to consider, not least of which is the maintenance of the proportionality of the conservative elements, always skewed in closed systems without water changes.

Before making some of the off-the-cuff broad statements you've presented in the thread, you might want to make it a point to read the Millero text on Chemical Oceanography, it may give you a little more insight into the big picture, and the book Dynamic Aquiaria by Dr's Adey and Loveland will give you a more detailed explaination about why closed systems differ so dramatically from the ocean's apparent continuous water change.

Although you seem to have a system that is sustaining life for now, remember that many marine creatures are capable of broad adaptations to less than optimal water parameters in order to survive. Once again, it comes back to the difference between surviving and thriving. 9 months is but a single frame out of a 2-hour movie for many reef creatures.

[wasabi]

hey trodder i know this is way off topic but, i kept a large predator freshwater tank for several years. i dont know if you have done much reading on goldfish. but they are not a very good foodsource. and from everything i have gathered can actually be a danger to your fish. you might want to do a search on a freshwater sight.

[Mkelly]

Why would you wait till you have water problems or algae problems before changing the water? One problem tends to trigger another so why not nip all that in the bud.

Maybe it's just easier for me all my water changes are automated. I have a drain valve in my tank open it up water comes out. I have a 55 gallon drum waters premixed turn on a pump and pump in nice " new clean fresh " ( relative and subjective terms all, I know ) water.

My tank is still very new ( 6 months old ) I'm finally happy with the way it looks. It is I think finally cycling properly. I really dont have to touch or add much. I have very little algae what I do have I leave for food, everyone open and looking good, so why when it takes 15 minutes or so to prevent hours of headaches wouldnt you change some water?

[trodder]

As far as Goldfish for food... I hear ya. The story goes that they have never been accepting to flake food. They would eat blood worms and occasionally brine shrimp (if they are hungry enough.) At one point I had to go out of time for a little over a week and had no one willing to feed my piranhas 3 times a day as they require. I had no choice but to give in to live feeders (enough that would last the 9 days I was gone.) Ever since they would not take anything that was not live. I have tried many different things such as salmon different types of blood worms etc. The only thing I have seen them eat non-living is one time ALL the LFS in the twin city area ran out of feeders for a week (this happened about 2 months ago.) Maybe not all the LFS in twin cities but I tried 6 or 7 different ones in different areas and they all said they are expecting some tomorrow (they would tell me this for almost a week straight.) Finally I got the word that due to pond becoming the big summer project thing, everyone went out and bought a ton of feeders for pond fish at 20 some odd cents a piece instead of spending $6 or $7 a piece for Koi at Wal-Mart or more at their LFS. Anyway my wife decided to throw them an 8oz steak (pretty raw... nuked it for a minute in hopes that if there is anything bad living on the meat that it would be killed. They ate it. They were also in a position that they have never been in before (about a week without food.) Gold fish for feeders is not really a bad thing health wise except for the chance of disease that you introduce. That in itself IS a great risk but there are steps you can do to reduce the risk (not eliminate but reduce.) I try to do all that I can to ensure the food they eat is healthy... so far so good. Piranhas in the wild eat anything and everything so it is natural for them to eat other fish or birds or frogs or anything they can grab, including each other... a strange little tid bit to add is they for some reason or another, the exception to eating each other is they do not eat their OWN young (fry into juvs.)

Now back on subject,
As far as water changes everyone is making very good points, but also not all the points are saying the same thing. That just shows that there is a lot to be learned and that there is no perfect answer. I also want to make a point that I do not standby and wait to have an out of control algae problem or wait for my critters to stop growing to do water changes. I do them frequently at the beginning and when a tank becomes stable then I start to limit them by starting to take tests once every 2 weeks, then eventually once a month (that is for PH, Ammonia, Nitrates, nitrites.) I have found that if you micro manage your tank you can end up trying to do too much. Once you have a stable environment you kinda have to put your hands in your pocket and step away from the tank. Then you need to make observations and some time let the tank go (under monitoring) to see how your tank reacts for a while on its own. Find the limits so that if God forbid something unexpected happens to you that you are in the hospital for 2 months that your tank can care for itself with little intervention from someone who does not know much about your tank that is there for feeding your fish and performing as little maint. as possible. Now I'm not saying play rush and roulette with your critters!!! Don’t let them come to a point that they are almost dead and then try to bring them back... it's a judgment thing they I'm sure you all can make a good call on. I also want to point out that most of my experience is from a FW stand point and I do realize that SW is a totally different world but some of the basics are still the same. I do also want you know I am learning even new things from this thread and that I am not knocking anyone I am trying to look through there point of view because a closed mind cannot learn... Although I do feel that others are looking to crucify me on this matter... But as I stated previously I am only giving a point of view that is composed only partially from theory, fact, and experience. I am not trying to say these are the facts and this is how it is. I'm trying to say let your experience be your guide but also look for ideas from others to give you a baseline on what you are doing. I myself am simply doing what this forum is designed to do... I am sharing my experiences with others to compare results.

[Emmitt]

Haven't been to this board (or any others) in quite awhile and even then didn't post much. Some interesting threads going on tho.

One point I didn't see anyone mention is bacterial load in our tanks. I'm not talking about the beneficial bacteria that allows our nitrogen cycle, but rather, the kind of bacteria that will make your hand/arm swell to alarming proportions should you have any kind of open wound.

My experience has been that swimming in the ocean encouraged healing of any cuts, etc, I've had. I don't think I'd recommend to anyone to use their tanks for the same purpose. Obviously, our tanks will never be as clean the ocean, but I will continue to do water changes for no other reason than to try and keep the level of nasties as low as possible. Too bad there is no available test for these pathogens (or maybe it's just as well we don't know the levels).

Btw, the only parameters I test for are s.g. and pH. Everything else I assume is in order as long as fish, sps and other critters continue to grow and do well.

[Mkelly]

Trodder I don't think anyone is looking to hang you. I'm not here very long but this doesn't strike me as that kind of place. I do think what we have here are two very distinct schools of thought.

People who do WC's frequently are hard-core believers in them. The other school of thought is " if it ain’t broke don't fix it". I think both schools have valid points. This is not to say that people who don’t do WC's as frequently are doing something wrong, it's just different.

I started doing smaller WC's and it was suggested to me to increase the size. Now being the believer I am I took the advice and have seen great results. For me this works for others it may not.

I could point out a recent thread about star polyps to illustrate my point. Everyone who posted on that thread kept their animal in a different place with totally different water flows and lighting.


Sadly I think this is one of those debates where neither side is right or wrong and the argument becomes circular. The great thing is thru differing opinions and calm debate we all learn a little something

Now no matter what don't say DSB

[galleon]

"the Millero text on Chemical Oceanography"

A book that every aquarist should try to procure...

[trodder]

I just want to say I appreciate everyones thoughts... especially that of Mkelly. I agree with what was stated whole heartedly! Everything in this hobby can be trial and error... and who knows I may continue to do frequent water changes during my many years to come in the SW world? It all depends on my results. I want my critters to thrive! But I also don't wan't to take the bias opinion of a book to allow me to discover for myself what is the best way to do something. I have found that in most cases things printed in a book has at least a small bit of bias in them or may simply not be accurate by any account. You never now what is Entirely Factual! Also I believe that it takes a little away from this hobby to not ever defy what the book says and find out for yourself. In fact I will try to find the name of the book but I have had a book tell me that a UGF was an absolute must in an Marine Aquarium. I bought it since it IS key to a FW tank. No GOOD! It's not even compatible if you are using the ideal substrate, because it will get sucked through the UGF and out your Powerhead. After that I read into that a bit further and I found that most would say that a UGF in a SW tank is down right silly. Yet the first book I read about SW aquariums told me that it is a must... since then I have not looked into that book again. Anyway point being is that I will once again try not to believe all that I read without getting the validity from others with real life experience or unless it is something that I can safely experiment for myself.

[yardboy]

And ya know Trodder, even an underwater filter for SW has its adherents, though it's called a plenum and doesn't have water going through it constantly. Jus yesterday, I was looking at the prices of them at Wal-MArt and realizing it would be cheaper to buy a UG filter and modify it as a plenum than build one from scratch!

[SteveNichols]

It is ok to "experiment". But as I tell my kids. learn how to walk before you run. THe scientific "stuff' is ages old ijn many cases. Scientists have been keeping acropora for at least 20 years. We in the hobby "discovered" how in the last 5 years. It is best to know as much of the science as one can before "experimenting" That sure doesn't work in science. You can't perform experiments or really even form a hypothesis to test without a good fundamental understanding of the science. What background does it take to "discover for myself" what works. What parameters define success? Is it keeping a fish or coral for a year? I know of no experienced hobbiest that would say yes. Is it 5? Again, I knowof no serious hobbiest that would say yes. Get to 10 and i think you will find a few. We keep these animals a lot less time than they enjoy in the real world.


I participated in the Shimek water study. My tank was the mean in almost every catagory. A very average mix of all tanks. It is no where near NSW, the natural habitat. If I decide to keep these animals, i should provide them with what they are used to. This is the ethical thing to do.


mnreefman,
Thanks for bringing this up. It has completely changed the way I am keeping my tanks. I didn't do water changes and through this discussion, I have seen that this is as much an ethical question as should we take these animals in the first place. If I can answer yes to that question, it is entirely incumbent upon me to provide the optimum environment for the animals in my care.

[SPC]

I have also kept FW tanks for many years (still have a 100 and 42 gallon BTW), and at one time spent alot of time on FW boards. In all the years of reading, and talking to experienced hobbyist both FW and SW, not once have I heard any of them say that water changes aren't important.

As far as FW goes, without water changes both nitrate and phosphate will continue to climb if the hobbyist dosen't intervene. This isn't a maybe, as long as you are feeding animal protien to your animals, there will be a build up of organics in the tank, period.

You never now what is Entirely Factual! Also I believe that it takes a little away from this hobby to not ever defy what the book says and find out for yourself. In fact I will try to find the name of the book but I have had a book tell me that a UGF was an absolute must in an Marine Aquarium.

A UGF filter is a piece of equipment that does do exactly what it was intended for. It must be set up correctly and maintained in order for it to function. Do I use one? Heck no, IMO it is not needed in a tank that contains LR, but this still does not mean it didn't serve a purpose at one time in this hobby, or that it shouldn't be employed in some situations now.

At the time that book was written, trodder, people in the hobby were just learning about the roles that bacteria play in breaking down waste. The UGF filter was, and still is very efficient at breaking down ammonia and nitrite. I would be willing to bet that this book also recommended water changes, as do all of the most recent books, this truth has never changed.

I have a challenge for you guys , name one, only one hobbyist book that dosen't recommend water changes for either FW or SW. In fact, can anyone name any publication that deals with closed systems that recommends against water changes?
Steve
Steve

[trodder]

Like I said in the SW environment I find that in my case and in most cases that the UGF just isn't a reasonable solution for bio filtration... I have been told it is much like bio-balls in a wet dry and in my case I would have been using both... Talk about a Nitrate factory....wheeee. Also the thing that turned me off is the most suitable gravel in gets sucked through the ugf plates... thats no good. On the other hand UGF in a FW environment in my experience is crucial!! Most FW power filters up until the last few years did not provide any Wet/Dry type filters to increase the production of the bacterias that help break down ammonia and nitrites... the UGF help to do that. I live and die by a UGF in a FW but would not critisize one if they chose not to.

[inspector eric]

Originally posted by mnreefman
dsb deep sand bed....
also i my system has a fefugum and i am adding a sump.....my water gets clean via a skimmer and macro alge and over 200 lbs of or in the system, so essenitally clean water does get put in my system

Perhaps I should have read all the threads to the bottom but 200# in how large on a system that in a 75 would be a massively deep bed in a 125 or 150 it would barely be enough.....and as for as H20 changes go... my 55 is very stable and it gets topped off and about every month I make sure that as I add h20 the SG is correct, I've only had to add once when I bought it used off a guy and I put all the H20 back into it when I set it up in my home.

[galleon]

"my 55 is very stable and it gets topped off and about every month I make sure that as I add h20 the SG is correct"

Am I to infer that you believe the replacement of evaporated freshwater is removing pollutants in a fashion analogous to a water change?