Tahitian Blend and red slime algae

[Rick O]

Has anyone else had a red slime outbreak after using Tahitian Blend?

About six weeks ago I started usimg Tahitian Blend every other day in small amounts. I started with 3/8ml and slowly ramped up to 1ml for 120g tank. About three weeks ago I started getting red slime on the sand only in the front of the tank. I redirected the water flow to provide more to that area but that has only helped slightly. Also I'm doing 10% water changes every three weeks using RO/DI water.

Tank params are:
Temp-81
Salinity-1.023
ph-8.2
Ammonia and Nitrite-undetectable
Nitrate-about 5
Alk-3
Ca-400-450
Lighting-(4)110w VHO & (2)40w NO 12hr/day

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Rick

[MiNdErAsR]

You don't mention just how slowly you ramped up. It could be coincidence, or you may not have that many creatures which would directly benefit from the phytoplankton. When was the last time you cleaned you skimmer? Is the skimmer under-rated for you system? Could you be over feeding with other items? Many things can cause cyanobacteria.

On another note, your alk level is a tad low. I'd recommend 3.6 to 4.3 mEq/L. I'd also recommend bringing the specific gravity up to 1.025-26

IMO, HTH, yadda yadda yadda



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Jim Fox
http://www.geekopolis.com/reef/nos4a2/

In the sea of life, you're just a minnow...you live your life, insecure...

[tdwyatt]

I am assuming (there's that word again...) that we are id'ing this as a cyanobacter spp. outbreak, and not a rust brown or rust red slimy mat with bubbles (that would be dinoflagellates, snot with bubbles...). Systems that have cyanobacteria outbreaks usually have several problems/causes and not just one causative factor. Feeding with a large amount of Tahitian treat could provide both a nutrient source as is, and, as it decomposes, a source of dissolved organic compounds (DOC) as well as possible sources of phosphate (yeah, I know, they say it is low phosphate, but when it breaks down…). Cyanobacteria outbreaks (not in a newly developing tank) are the result of physical, chemical and biological causes that all contribute to Cyanobacteria gaining a competitive advantage over other unicellular and related small organisms. You’ve mentioned that the low flow areas were the sites of the initial outbreak (the front of the substrate is often one of the lowest water flow area unless jets of water are directly aimed there). Water flow and Lighting are the two physical factors involved in cyano outbreaks. Cutting your photoperiod down by 30% (along with the flow changes you’ve already done) should help tremendously. These two factors in many outbreaks alone are often enough to kick cyano into an advantageous position, but what prolly started this outbreak was the addition of nutrients (Tahitian Treat) to the system.

With most outbreaks, the supply of nitrogen is the key that starts the cyano outbreak off. For many tanks, it is absolutely necessary to have both import and export mechanisms in place for the handling of nutrients. As with many systems, you need to remove the excess nitrogen from the system in order to control the access of nitrogen to cyanobacteria.. That can be either deep sand beds (in jaubert systems) or the skimmer (in Berlin systems) or in combination with live rock and water changes. However, this only addresses the export of nitrogen. Phosphate is also a major player in this scenario, and it is not so easily removed, especially in skimmerless systems. Water changes can remove phosphate, as well as the use of algael scrubbers and refugia containing macroalgae, and there are a few aluminum resins on the market that remove phosphate as well (I hope you don’t have any leather/sarcophyton spp if you use these “phosphate sponges”). I noticed that you tested your water for the tank and the results show less than 5 ppm., you might want to test your ro/di water for nitrates and phosphates, as well as any carbon that you are filtering with. Many times, systems that have cyano can remove nitrate as quickly as it appears in the water column, so removing (siphoning off) the cyano mat will help remove some of the nitrates and phosphates. You might want to test your water just after removing the cyano mat and see what your nitrate in the aquarium is then, as well as your RO/DI output. If you find that one of the necessary nutrients is high and the other is low, you still wouldn’t know which of the two is the problem; cyanobacter growth could be limited by the relative absence of the low concentration nutrient (this is a mixed blessing, just think how bad the outbreak COULD be…). I am not one of those who supports low feeding rates for tanks, in fact I feed heavily. I DO support the use of efficient export methods to remove the end products of heavy feeding. I also believe in using food chains as the basis for developing these export methods, or rather, moving the nutrients as far along the food chain as possible by including an extremely diverse biomass in the tank. By doing this, products are either recycled or removed from the system by your method of export, but then again, that is just my opinion…

With the food chain in mind, have you considered the number of creatures that utilize this protist for food? There are a number of benthic creatures that NEED cyanobacteria as part of their diet. If your tank has sand for the substrate (I would hope that you do…) you might consider seeding the sandbed with new live creatures from a friend’s tank that doesn’t have cyanobacter problems. If you do this, put all the new sand in one place. If there has been competition between the cyano-consuming creatures that you want and some type of benthic predator, having all the sand in one spot will give the new guys a better chance of surviving. In addition to using benthic creatures to consume the cyanobacteria, you could use any number of janitors, or even go with some of the herbivorous fishes (ask Alice for a recommendation on this NASA approved and certified fish… ;-) Even though this will help control the cyanobacteria outbreak, keep in mind that this still doesn’t remove the nutrients from your microcosm: you still need some method of exporting the nutrients from your system. You may be able to stop the cyanobacteria outbreak, but you could be shifting the problem from cyano to some other nuisance algae. I see so many posts that deal with one problem only to see another post from the same aquarist pop up a few weeks later with another related problem. You will need to address the problem that is CAUSING the outbreak, and find a cure for that, rather than continuing to treat the symptoms of the problem.

Sorry for the long post, I hope this helps you move ahead in the husbandry of your microcosm!


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Tom <"{{{{>(
(TDWyatt)
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. -Plato

[Rick O]

Thanks for the replies. Let me give some more information based on what you have told me so far.

Jim-It's hard to describe how slowly or quickly I ramped up, but I do think that using TB every other day might be too much. I clean my skimmer every week and yes it is too small. Rated for 100 gallons. I only have 4 fish and I don't think I overfeed them as they eat all of the food very quickly. As for the low alk; I have upped the dosage of B-Ionic so I'll check the alk again this weekend. My nitrate and phosphate test kits are not very good so I can't rely on them too much. Phosphates tests 0 but I don't have much faith in that.

Tom-It's more like the red slimy mat with bubbles(dinoflagellates). It comes out very easily with tongs and I am removing it frequently. The weird thing is that in the morning before the lights come on I can't see any with a flashlight, almost like it disappears in at night. I have numerous snails in the tank and they show no interest in it. I have temporarily suspended using the TB to see if it starts receding or the growth slows. Your post was mostly about controlling cyno, but I assume that the same would apply to any nusance algae-control nutrients.

This is a relatively new tank, but the LR and sand came from my older well established tank. I have noticed though that I don't see as many sand critters as I did in the other tank. Do you think that a detritivore kit is in order?

Thanks.
Rick

[tdwyatt]

The dissappearance of the mat overnight is a good indicator that it is indeed cyanobacteria, and yes, I think a detrivore kit would be great at this point, as would adding more live sand (yeah, I know, it ain't cheap...). I don't know how much you use your skimmer, but cleaning it once a week is enough, although you might want to get a larger skimmer (red sea berlin is a great choice)and that will improve your export of DOC's before they become problems in the tank. I would also leave off the tahitian treat for a week, then start back slowly, maybe twice a week. I think you're already on the right track, I think what you're already doing is what will clear up the problem. Cut your photoperiod back to 8 hrs a day for a while, then go back one more hour a day every 2 or 3 days until you get back to 12 hrs/ day. Siphoning out the cyano is another way of exporting the nutrients that are locked up in the cells. Slowly increasing the tahitian blend will allow the other critters in the tank to multiply in proportion to your feeding, leaving less for a possible future outbreak of cyano. Might want to check out Rob Toonen's 2 part FAMA article, or Ron Shimek's article along the same lines, both authors deal with the benthic populations and how they help in processing nutrients in deep sand beds. Just keep in mind that these blooms often have many causes, and although it may seem apparent that " oh yeah, it's the nitrates, maybe the phosphates...", it may be as simple as dropping the lighting level for a few days to remove the problem.

I hope this helps you out, and yes, even though I recommend more critters, they only change the nitrate, they don't export it out of your system, so you will still need to export both phosphate and nitrate out of the system, either through water changes or through some biological or chemical entrapment (and subsequent removal).

If you want more on the dinoflagellates, I'll post a little info on them, but they are very slimy, more like snot. You usually cannot pick it up with a pair of forceps.
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Tom <"{{{{>(
(TDWyatt)
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. -Plato

[This message has been edited by tdwyatt (edited 09-19-2000).]

[MiNdErAsR]

Originally posted by Rick O:


It's hard to describe how slowly or quickly I ramped up, but I do think that using TB every other day might be too much.

I feed 3 different sizes of golden pearls & 2 different instant algaes every day. I honestly don't believe that's the problem.

I clean my skimmer every week and yes it is too small. Rated for 100 gallons.

Aha! This could be a major contributor to the problem at hand. Most skimmers are greatly overrated by the manufacturer. Time to consider a skimmer upgrade.

I only have 4 fish and I don't think I overfeed them as they eat all of the food very quickly.

They would still contribute to the overall bio-load, but I doubt they're a contributor to the problem at hand.

As for the low alk; I have upped the dosage of B-Ionic so I'll check the alk again this weekend. My nitrate and phosphate test kits are not very good so I can't rely on them too much. Phosphates tests 0 but I don't have much faith in that.

Phosphates are a tricky thing. Levels above 0.04 mg/L will feed an algae bloom. Most of the test kits marketed towards aquarists are just not sensative enough, and a reading of zero may very well be far above 0.04 mg/L to such a kit. I'd recommend a Hach (model # PO-19). This is the kit I use.

It's more like the red slimy mat with bubbles(dinoflagellates). It comes out very easily with tongs and I am removing it frequently. The weird thing is that in the morning before the lights come on I can't see any with a flashlight, almost like it disappears in at night. I have numerous snails in the tank and they show no interest in it.

*If* it's dinoflagellates, I don't think you could remove it with tongs, as it would break up and drift about the tank. Although the bloom would rise and fall with he photoperiod. If it is dinoflagellates, the snails show no interest because it is deadly to them. The Reef Aquarium (Delbeek & Sprung) has a section on dinoflagellates with some methods of removal. These methods worked for me, but do not work for everyone. Good luck.

HTH

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Jim Fox
http://www.geekopolis.com/reef/nos4a2/

In the sea of life, you're just a minnow...you live your life, insecure...

[This message has been edited by MiNdErAsR (edited 09-19-2000).]