40g tank, What filtration options do I have?

[trob]

We are moving up from a 20g to a 40g tank. The 40g has an old HOB sump with it however its old and has a small (cosmetic) broken part on it. The sump houses my protein skimmer, heater, and also has bio-balls in the middle section. What options do I have to replace the current sump with a new sump given the following considerations.

1)Tank is on the second floor of the house and I'm very hesitant of options that could create some type of yen fountain in the living room below. That means I'm hesitant about drilling and any type of gravity fed sumps or overflows below the tank that could create a problem with leakage.

2)It would be nice to have a HOB or something that is aesthetically pleasing, but that might be an oxymoron.

3)I may toss the bio-balls and replace with fuge. I just want to make sure that it is as-or-more efficient and not a bad idea.

Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions?

[hng]

First thing I would do is to get a better skimmer, with the restraints that you've listed, a HOB is the only choice. I would go with an Aqua C Remora, it's rated up to a 75 gal tank and doesn't have a tendency to overflow like the coralife super skimmer (my next choice for best value skimmer). Second thing I would do is to get more live rock for biological filtration and remove the bioballs gradually. Finally, if the current HOB sump isn't too bad off, just continue to use it. No point throwing away money - use the money you saved to upgrade your lights

[trob]

The skimmer in the current HOB sump is fine. Sorry if I made that unclear but its a seperate skimmer just siting in the first chamber. I like the remora stuff but its $$$. It would be nice if they sold a matching hob sump to go with their hob skimmers. Also right now I don't need new lights, what good is better lights when it just illuminates the old sump.

[hng]

So are you just looking for a new sump?

[trob]

Yes. I guess I should have detailed that a little better. I am open to replacing the skimmer if necessary, but mainly I need to replace the sump. I'm not sure what hang-on sumps there are to fit my needs. I have also seen hang-on overflow feeds but thats still a little too scary I think.

[trob]

I've seen some pics of the aquafuge2, it looks interesting. Does anyone have some advice?

[Geoff]

why do you want a sump? the only filtration you need is LR and a skimmer. if you are not going to go all out and put a large sump below the tank than i would not even worry about having one.

how much skimmate do you get a day out of the skimmer? i think fuges are a waste of time and money, so you can guess what i think about you wanting to get one.

G~

[trob]

Originally Posted by Geoff

why do you want a sump? the only filtration you need is LR and a skimmer. if you are not going to go all out and put a large sump below the tank than i would not even worry about having one.

how much skimmate do you get a day out of the skimmer? i think fuges are a waste of time and money, so you can guess what i think about you wanting to get one.

G~

Thanks for your advice G, let me give you a little backing on this. These are my girlfriends tanks which she has had the 20g for several years now. She is moving to the 40g tank very soon, and the new reef tank will also host 4 or 5 fish. In the last couple of months I have read about as much as I could about tanks, hardware, filteration, and so forth. She works at a LFS and knows alot about fish and livestock but she is not as familiar with hardware. The 40g she's moving to already had a sump to house the skimmer, heater, and bio-balls. From the reading I have done everyone seems to think bio-balls are the testicles of the devil, so I was going to encourage some other type of setup.

Right now her 20g tank uses a bio-wheel for filtration, has a good bit of live rock, a 2" sand bed, and she doesn't use a skimmer on it. I like the sump idea to hide pumps, heaters, grounding probes, filtration bags, etc. But also like I said, the tank is not drilled and I would be very hessitant to create a setup that could possibly leak or overflow.

Also about the fuges being a waste, I was thinking using chaeto to remove excess nitrates.

[Geoff]

WOW, do not know where to start. you have a lot of info that is kinda out of date and or told to you a bit wrong. great that you are looking into all of this.

i will start with clearification stuff, and what really is happening in a SW aquarium.

using algae to uptake nitrates/nutrients is a loosing battle. algae leak about as much nutrients as they uptake. they are constantly leaking phosphates. whatever they are not able to bind they promptly release. a properly running wet skimmer will uptake these nutrients better than the algae can. well not entirely true, but the net gain is better than what the algae can do since the algae leaks much of the nutrients back into the water column while a skimmer does not.

sand beds are sponges, all they do is absorbe phosphates and other toxins. eventually sand beds get full and will need to be replaced. you are able to run a tank without a skimmer by relying on the sand bed to do all of the nutrient absorption. the deeper the sand bed the longer it takes for it to get full. in larger tanks it can take up to 7 years, but in most systems it usually occurs within 3 years. on smaller tanks, or tanks that get moved around a lot, this may not be a big concern, since replacement of the sand bed is easy when the tank is being moved. the better you are at siphoning out detritus during water changes the longer the sand bed will last also. when i mean siphon detritus i mean ALL detritus, even the detritus behind the LR. it is also a good idea not to have any LR touching the sand bed. as the sand bed absorbes phosphates and becomes full the LR can start wicking the phosphates up from the sand bed. you can tell this is happening by the amount of HA/cyano that will start growing on the LR. the LR near the sand bed having more HA/cyano than those pieces higher up.

end of part 1

[Geoff]

part 2

bioballs are bad because of two reasons. one they trap detritus, two they are an aerobic envionment. because they trap detritus they allow it to rot and release its bound phosphates back into the water column. this can lead to nuisance algae getting a chance at using it.

bio-balls/biowheels are also an aerobic environment. this means that they are only able to convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate they are not able to convert nitrate to nitrogen. this is why their use can lead to an increase in nitrate levels. this goes with any aerobic environment, whether it is a bio-ball/biowheel or a piece of LR exposed to the wet/dry area. filtration bags can also be problematic depending on what is in them. most peoploe only run either carbon or a phosphate remover in them. anything else will not really help the system and could be forgotten. these need to be changed out once a week.

you might want to remove the biowheel off of the filter. have you tested your nitrate levels lately? they are prolly above 20ppm.

as for the sump. sumps are great, but they need to be pretty big to be really usefull. i have a feeling the skimmer that is on the system now is not really up to the task of a 40g tank. how often are you emptying the collection cup? what does your skimmate look like? it should look like a light tea coloured liquid. it should not be a brown nasty chunky stuff.

i remove 1g of skimmate a day out of my 150g total system. i would think you should be getting about 4-6oz a day out of yours if run properly.

do you have a pic of this sump/skimmer combo filter you are running?

G~

[trob]

Geoff, really thanks alot for all your help! Everything your saying I have seen in many different places but its great that you are linking them all together for me in one place and sutiable to answer my questions.

Before I get into the skimmer talk. How do you keep LR from touching the sand bed? It apears everyone just ignores this problem.

The skimmer is currently out of order, actually I have the sump and skimmer at my house now and I've got a makeshift rubbermaid setup to cure some live rock I just received. The sump and skimmer hasn't been used for about 2-3 months so I took them home to clean up and utilize till we fill her 40g tank. I'll try to get a few pictures of my setup and the sump and skimmer.

I measured the skimmer and its about 3" in diameter and 14" tall including the collection cup. I've had some problems figuring out how it works but I think thats because something is missing. After doing some research I'm guessing the air diffuser is missing. My girlfriend said she thought she had everything and never saw a airpump and airstone that went with it. I know an airstone and diffuser are a little different but, thats my girl. The skimmer seems to be a quasi counter-current skimmer. The reason I say that is because it looks like someone took a co-current skimmer, drilled a hole in the side and added a 1/2" inlet tube fed by a mj900. The bottom of the skimmer is open therefore there is no need for an outlet tube. The mj900 sits in the main tank and forces all the sump-bound water into the skimmer resting in chamber 1. Chamber 1 overflows into chamber 2 which drips across bio-balls. Chamber 2 has a mj900 in the bottom that forces water into chamber 3 through 1/2" tubing. There is a float that opens and close a second 1/2" hole in chamber 2 so that the pump will not run dry if the sump water level drops. Both chamber 2 and 3 have overflows back into the main tank.

Now here is how I think I can increase the effectiveness of this sump without new hardware and tossing the balls. It may go against some of the things you said but I think you were refering to skimmer vs. LR + algae instead of the best of both worlds. Please feel free to inform me if you think this is a bad idea or how it could be improved.

The sump deminisons are roughly:
chamber 1 = 4 x 3
chamber 2 = 6 x 3
chamber 3 = 2 x 3

I'll leave the skimmer in chamber 1. I'll fill chamber 2 with LR and remove the pump and float. In chamber 3, I'll add chaeto. Removing the pump and float will cause all three chambers to flood. Water is force into the skimmer by the mj 900 which will filter it. Chamber 1 has a higher overflow that will drip into chamber 2 creating some current in the LR. Chamber 2 and 3 will want to remain level so about 2/3 of the water will exit the overflow in chamber 2 while 1/3 of the water will pass through the live rock and into chamber 3. The 1/3 of the water flow in chamber 3 will be slower and will filter through chaeto before dumping out the overflow back into the main tank.

Here is the only problem I need to test with my design. I'm not sure what will happen to the water in chamber 1 if I loose power to the mj900.
Hypothesis 1: The water level between chamber 1 and the main tank will equalize. (GOOD)
Hypothesis 2: Backpressure from the mj900 will cause the 1/2 hose to syphon the water out of chamber 1 to the level of the 1/2" inlet into the skimmer. (BAD)
Hypothesis 3: Nothing at all will happen. (Very unlikely)

Please feel free to give me any of your thoughts on all this

[Geoff]

sorry, busy right now, i will answer a bit later. i am not ignoring the thread.

G~

[trob]

Thanks whenever you get some time.

Also here are some pictures of the sump and skimmer in action now. I did find out that when the skimmer pump loses power it will syphon the water from chamber 1 back into the main tank until the water level is at the level of the inlet. Because I'm using it in a makeshift rock curing setup, I'm not sure if they would just equalize if the sump was properly setup on the back of a tank.

[Geoff]

an interesting little contraption you have there. you are definately in need of some more bubble action. that skimmer is not doing much with that little bubbles. the skimmer should be filled with a milky white mixture of bubbles. how the bubbles get in there does not matter. you can either use a couple of limewood stones or you can use a venturi powerhead. looking at the lift needed to get the water into the sump/skimmer i am thinking a venturi PH will not work. to much back pressure.

i would also remove all of the LR and bio/bail unless you plan on taking them out on a regular basis in order to siphon out all the detritus that will accumulate at the bottom of the sump area.

as for getting the LR off of the substrate there are a couple of popular methods. one just uses PVC pipes cut in small section with holes drilled through the sides. these holes allow critters to to in and out of the PVC stands. the other is using acrylic rods on a stand to lift everything up. take a look at the DIY forum and see Fly Guys DIY group build on this kind of stand. this is by far the better method.

Chaeto is the best algae to use IF you are going to run algae as a nutrient export method. not nearly as effective as people think it is. besides the object of keeping Chaeto is to get rid of algae. do you not think that if it can grow in your sump it can not grow in the display? why would it not? besides the skimmer is removing any food that the chaeto would want anyway before it gets to it. it drives me nuts when people complain that their Chaeto keeps dying!! this is a great thing, means your water is low in nutrients, this is what the object was in the first place.

G~

[trob]

Originally Posted by Geoff

an interesting little contraption you have there. you are definately in need of some more bubble action. that skimmer is not doing much with that little bubbles. the skimmer should be filled with a milky white mixture of bubbles. how the bubbles get in there does not matter. you can either use a couple of limewood stones or you can use a venturi powerhead. looking at the lift needed to get the water into the sump/skimmer i am thinking a venturi PH will not work. to much back pressure.

i would also remove all of the LR and bio/bail unless you plan on taking them out on a regular basis in order to siphon out all the detritus that will accumulate at the bottom of the sump area.

as for getting the LR off of the substrate there are a couple of popular methods. one just uses PVC pipes cut in small section with holes drilled through the sides. these holes allow critters to to in and out of the PVC stands. the other is using acrylic rods on a stand to lift everything up. take a look at the DIY forum and see Fly Guys DIY group build on this kind of stand. this is by far the better method.

Chaeto is the best algae to use IF you are going to run algae as a nutrient export method. not nearly as effective as people think it is. besides the object of keeping Chaeto is to get rid of algae. do you not think that if it can grow in your sump it can not grow in the display? why would it not? besides the skimmer is removing any food that the chaeto would want anyway before it gets to it. it drives me nuts when people complain that their Chaeto keeps dying!! this is a great thing, means your water is low in nutrients, this is what the object was in the first place.

G~

Thanks for your opinion on my contraption, I'm not sure if I mentioned it but right now I'm finalizing the curing my rock in the rubbermaids and in the middle smaller container I have some inverts, LR, and LS. It's a makeshift setup till we get the tanks setup and at the same time trying to figure out how to use the sump with the 40g tank.



As for the bubbles, my girlfriend is working at the LFS today and she is picking up some limewood diffusers. I couldn't find any info on what size pump to use so I started with a whisper 10g air pump. It appears that its not enough so I'm going to exchange it for a larger air pump. Maybe two outputs to two diffusers this time. Actually my gf already has a dual output pump and only needs a single so I may swap with her.

I really like your point on the nutrients to support the chaeto. The main reason I've got the chaeto is because I'm also setting up a 8g biocube and due to the lack of room for a skimmer in it, I'm going to use the same idea for LR + chaeto to filter it.

I'm pretty sure I have seen the acrylic rod DIY before I just didn't read into it to see the point. I was just thinking it would help allow some flow to the underside of the rocks, that makes more sence now.

Now a couple more questions:
What are your thoughts on the air pump size, powerhead size, and number of diffusers?

Also all the skimmate removal is going to drop my water level. If I add replacement water equal to the ammount of skimmate in my 2g resivour should I use RO/DI or saltwater?

For replacement water I'm guessing I'm going to have to use a little of both due to evaporation too. Monday or Tuesday I should have a refractometer I ordered online.