This is why the BIG THREE should go under

[Fat Tony]

Also the problem is just the general misconception by the American people the the Foreign Imports are better. The fact is that they aren't. MotorTrend released a study on the quality of the manufacturers vehicles. The study was based on defects that went into the dealership for repairs. Toyota was the lowest, but by extremely small margin (think .1%)Then it was Ford, and then a few others. All in all they were pretty equal, until you got to the Euro cars....they were wayyy down on the list, and their defects were pretty much the highest. Now the other Thing is mileage, we totally get stomped there. My questing is why can't Ford or Chevy build a car that makes almost 300 hp and get 30+mpg as Acura does?? It makes no sense to me whay the Big 3 can't build a car for mileage like the Japs do... it's just plain insane!

[jenglish]

Originally Posted by Fat Tony

Also the problem is just the general misconception by the American people the the Foreign Imports are better. The fact is that they aren't. MotorTrend released a study on the quality of the manufacturers vehicles. The study was based on defects that went into the dealership for repairs. Toyota was the lowest, but by extremely small margin (think .1%)Then it was Ford, and then a few others. All in all they were pretty equal, until you got to the Euro cars....they were wayyy down on the list, and their defects were pretty much the highest. Now the other Thing is mileage, we totally get stomped there. My questing is why can't Ford or Chevy build a car that makes almost 300 hp and get 30+mpg as Acura does?? It makes no sense to me whay the Big 3 can't build a car for mileage like the Japs do... it's just plain insane!

I'm not saying that domestic cars aren't quality, but the design of that study leads me to question its conclusions. It makes me wonder how many people take their car to other mechanics for repairs. I would posit that if I had a european car I would be much more likely to take it to the dealership for repairs than a Ford or even a toyota. I also wonder how manufacturer warranties play into this.

I think that for the most part the big 3 haven't bothered to build cars that compete w/ a japenese import is that they had another part of the market. It would be expensive to compete directly w/ these cars while the light truck and SUV market was extremely profitable. THe japanese however had been aggressively tryong to develop their full size truck and SUV sectors.

I think there has also been some market factors as to what sells in america. Look at the cars that Ford sells in Europe like the diesel mentioned by OP, or the AWD turbo Focus. Or when nissan had the awesome 1.8 turbo in the 180sx in the 80s and 90s..... they put a 2.4 liter NA truck mill in the small sports car b/c they just didn't think they could sell a sports cat w/ that small of a motor. I think the big three has been following the market but largely w/ a very short sited plan. Both ford and chevy have small motors w/ the variable valve timing that has long been available in japan.

[Berggy]

Originally Posted by Neuticle

Nobody is blaming unions for ruining the competitiveness of the big three?

Let me be the first then.

Got ya beat ... I've been doing it for 20 yeaers or more.

[Phishnoob]

I think the scores you see in consumer reports and the long term longevity of the cars is a much better barometer.

VW and Mercedes are way down the list along with Dodge, GM and some Fords, but I fully expect my BMW's to go 250K miles without rattles.

There is nothing magic about European car maintenance...they do seem much easier to work on than cars that are snapped together on an assembly line with paint that peels off the hood within five years.

In the initial quality survey I think that someone that puts down 70K for their expensive German ride is going to be much more critical than your average Taurus buyer leading to more "defects".

[Scuba_Dave]

Geez I thought it was maybe the 10's of millions of dollars they pay their top executives (each). Or maybe it was the image they present by all flying private jets in to beg for $$

[Phishnoob]

Yep I saw that...20 grand a flight.

This is getting colorful now. The unions supported the Dems and want a payback but Congress is going to duck out without a vote and say that George Bush is supposed to do something.

The environmentalists are never going to get their green machines at this rate either.

C'mon free market..give me a stripped 135d Bimmer with that wonderful direct injection diesel without all the poseur do dads for 30 grand out the door. (hey I can fantasize can't I)

[Doug1]

Don't worry, Chinese investors will buy into the survivors, I am betting that they won't put up with unions

[OneDummHikk]

I get so sick of the "Its the unions fault" that it makes me want to puke sometimes. The CEO's get millions a year, fly around in private jets, get triple golden parachutes if they get fired (for doing a crappy job), they get lifelong benefits even if they retire, and yet "its the unions" fault. NO!. The problem with the "Big Three" are the Big Three themselves. Piss poor planning for the future and now they want a bailout. Some congresspersons suggested Chapter 11 and it was "adamantly refused". Probably because Ch 11 would cause THEM to lose there jobs, pensions, parachutes and livelihood. Amazing how that works sometimes.

[jenglish]

ODH, I think its a combination of bad execution and UAW making it difficult to stay competitive. But that goes back to my old philosophy that both management and unions tend to be too self interested because humans are basically self interested creatures. Unions are effective in a closed system but in an open economy it is difficult for a unionized workforce to stay competitive with nonunionized work. Unions are convenient for management to blame just as management is conveniant for unions to blame.

[Fat Tony]

My question is... how many here have worked or are currently working in a Union plant?? I can tell you from going to several that it is the absolute worst places to go as far as efficiency. It's the epitome of the "That ain't my job" attitude. Unions had a place in the early 1900's but not so much anymore...that's what we have OSHA for

[jenglish]

I have worked a couple of jobs that were nonunion but got union contracts... which meant we worked under union conditions. It was... definately not the worst day at work. I was engaged to a teamster once and have known some UAW employees as well. Of course I can't judge much off of small sample sizes.

[Doug1]

Originally Posted by jenglish

ODH, I think its a combination of bad execution and UAW making it difficult to stay competitive. But that goes back to my old philosophy that both management and unions tend to be too self interested because humans are basically self interested creatures. Unions are effective in a closed system but in an open economy it is difficult for a unionized workforce to stay competitive with nonunionized work. Unions are convenient for management to blame just as management is conveniant for unions to blame.

True enough, it's easy to point blame but in reality it's a very complex issue with no easy solution

[OneDummHikk]

I know its a combination of both. I just get sick of the "Its the unions fault" arguments where noting is said about the management. Doug is right, its a complex mess without a simple answer. Either way, in the end, its the taxpayer that is going to pay for it. Even the bailout has issues and I truly believe it will go through. If it goes through, they either give the loans without oversight, or, you get more government waste in the form of oversight and government agencies to make sure that responsible people do what they are supposed to do.

[tdwyatt]

Originally Posted by Fat Tony

Unions had a place in the early 1900's but not so much anymore...that's what we have OSHA for

Originally Posted by Doug

True enough, it's easy to point blame but in reality it's a very complex issue with no easy solution

Originally Posted by Randy

Either way, in the end, its the taxpayer that is going to pay for it.

In this society and business model, the Devil takes the Hindmost. If we are a true Capitalist market, those industries that cannot compete (for our consumers' dollars) will fail, at which point chapter 11 will force both management and labor to come to terms with the loss of the industry. There was no bailout for Textiles in the Old South when foreign competition forced most of the textile mills to close, but the South is much stronger and economically self-reliant as a result with much diversity in industry and no reliance on "King Cotton." Although seeing Chapter 11 in Detroit might hurt initially, it could be the best "sink or swim" proposal to make the US Auto Industry stronger and more efficient (AND THEREFORE, MORE COMPETATIVE) when considering their position in World markets. If there is so much dead wood in both management and labor, then maybe we need a Chapter 11 pruning to make the core strong again.

I am finally in agreement with Nancy Pelosi on something she has opined on: "either show us the business plan (so we know how much money you need and that you have a plan for it that leaves the auto industry better for the future without need for more handouts), or we can't show you the money."

[OneDummHikk]

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/sh...5&postcount=17

Tom, bankruptcy in the auto industry would totally shock me. Not because it's not the best thing (it would be) but because the politicians will never let it happen. The big three don't operate in a true market economy. If they did, they would be allowed to go bankrupt and a bailout wouldn't even be being considered. If the Republicans do it before January, the Dems will castrate them politically for "not letting the economy take its course". If the Reps don't, the Dems will bail it out after January, then proclaim "They took action when the Reps stuttered" and that they "re-energized the economy in the face of the recession left to us by Bush.". None of which is entirely true but it will be the way they play it out politically. I hope I am wrong and they force them into banckruptcy for reorganization but time will tell. I just don't have high hopes for the entire situation.