This is why the BIG THREE should go under

[hng]

The big three have some serious and deep problems that a gov't bailout won't fix. let's face it, their manufacturing is too innefficient, labor costs too high, and years away from developing cars and trucks that are fuel efficient AND reliable. Instead of a gov't bailout, they should enter chapter 11, restructure, and hopefully come out lean and mean. I'm tired of the gov't using MY money to pay for other peoples' failures and bad behavior.

[OneDummHikk]

Precisely Hng. When gas prices were low, the big three weren't worried about the future, only building bigger gas hogs. When gas prices went sky high and the sales dropped off on the gas guzzlers, detroit suffered for it. They weren't ready for the future. And you can't blame it on the unions. Too many companies operate with unions - at a profit - to simply blame it on the unions. If the big three had spent the time, money and effort to invest in the future, they wouldn't be in the predicament they are in now. It's the free economy at work.

But now, they don't have to worry about it. If they don't plan properly, have a piss poor business plan, no biggie. The government will bail them out.

Not only should the feds let the automakers compete in a FREE MARKET, they should let the banks do the same thing. Operate or go bankrupt. As long as the government is going to do a bailout, any bailout, the risk in big business is gone and they have no reason to worry about losing money, the government will bail them out.

[Doug1]

who's going to bail out the little guy thats taxed to poverty to try and bandage this severed fiscal artery

[icebear]

[sarcasm]

well, see since you were above poverty before the taxes i guess it means you were rich enough to be one of those evil wealthy people that must be taxed. you should be ashamed of your work ethic and ability to provide for your family..........


[/sarcasm]

[Doug1]

Originally Posted by icebear

[sarcasm]

well, see since you were above poverty before the taxes i guess it means you were rich enough to be one of those evil wealthy people that must be taxed. you should be ashamed of your work ethic and ability to provide for your family..........


[/sarcasm]

You are right, I am a bad bad person. I am patiently waiting on the new 2 line 1040 form for the IRS

1. How much did you make?
2. SEND IT IN

[Doug1]

Oops, its that time, gotta go Kids see you in the morning

[OneDummHikk]

Doug, if everything goes bankrupt and the government bails them out, when the government goes under there won't be any need for a bailout. A very good question though. I guess the big business that got bailed out would complain about having to pay taxes to give it back.

To give fair due, the auto industry isn't getting a true bailout from what I have read. It's government backed loans to keep them solvent. The banks are getting a true hand out - "You screwed up, heres some more money, try not to do it again".

[Doug1]

Originally Posted by OneDummHikk

Doug, if everything goes bankrupt and the government bails them out, when the government goes under there won't be any need for a bailout. A very good question though. I guess the big business that got bailed out would complain about having to pay taxes to give it back.

To give fair due, the auto industry isn't getting a true bailout from what I have read. It's government backed loans to keep them solvent. The banks are getting a true hand out - "You screwed up, heres some more money, try not to do it again".

I don't know what the details of the Auto Industy prop up are, i know the industry has had rough patches in the past, Chrysler almost went under till the government loaned it a lot of ,money and Iaccoca turned the company around and repaid the loans. I don't have a problem with that, but the concept of the government pulling money out of a magicians hat to bail out the Theives that manipulated this crisis slays me. In stead of paying for "golden parachutes" for all the high ranking exec, they should stipulate that the money be spent to actually do something useful and the guys that lied and manipulated the crisis should go to jail. Somehow I don't see this happening
As far as the big 3 auto makers, they have spent untold millions on advertising to convince the driving population that they all need big fuel hog SUV's and huge trucks, it's become a freaking status symbol. My unofficial observation, since I spend a lot of time on the road is that 20% (and thats being charitable) of the SUVS and large pickups have more than one person or a decent cargo load in them. I see a lot of them driving by me at 70+ with a driver and no passengers or load. Mind you, I love 4x4 trucks, I have a 90 Dodge that does see some off hiway use, but mostly its dump runs wuth garbage cans every couple weeks or hauling fertilizer or building supplies. Then again I paid $2000 for it a few years ago, as opposed to buying the spiffy new Dodge Diesel I wanted but couldn't justify the $40K price tag on. I commute almost 90 miles a day and my ride is an 06 Hyundai, it's a basic transpo box, with a 1.6L engine and AOD auto. which still cant beat the mileage my old 94 POS Grand Am 2.3L /5pd got but its right up there esp when compared to the one time I drove the truck to work
Right now gas is cheap, don't count on it lasting, the OPEC gang will cut back production and cause the market to panic and drive prices back up, the big 3 really need to produce more fuel efficient cars and look at alternatives, look at the sales growth of Hybrids, BS there ain't a market, F/G/C wont develop and push them, they are playing with concept cars or High end Hybrid Silverados and Escalades instead of working on a car that can transport 2-4 adults long distances for fairly cheap both monetarily and eco-ramification wise. Since the early 70's when the "gas crisis" first reared it ugly head, what did the Big 3 offer, The vega, pinto, chevette, fiesta, aspire and a slew of cheap imports badged as Mopar. Ford had the Escort and it was a bad idea till they owned up to being in bed with Mazda and letting Mazda build cars for them, early Mitsu built chryslers were crap, the colt, and omni/horizon yet Mitsu is a respected car builder.
i have no idea where its going to end, but I think it will get worse before it starts to crawl out of the slime

[jenglish]

Originally Posted by Doug1

I early Mitsu built chryslers were crap, the colt, and omni/horizon yet Mitsu is a respected car builder.
i have no idea where its going to end, but I think it will get worse before it starts to crawl out of the slime

Ok, I will give you the omni/horizon but the colts were reasonably solid cars. the 90s colts actually had some potential. the 1.8L they slapped in them was very respectable torque for its size it was just the transmissions that were not built to handle the torque. to Import lovers the dodge conquest (aka Mistubishi Starion) is considered a classic

the bailouts are a catch 22. No bailout and thousands loose their jobs and bailout we encourage bad risk management. Hey, take a big risk.... if it works out you keep the profits private, if it doesn't we'll make the loss public. The government has had to bailout the airline industries a couple of time because of poor bussiness management. People want the full boom of the free market but a softened bust, it just doesn't work that way.

My idea for an economic stimulus package: lower diesel taxes, how many items do you purchase that weren't moved by a diesel truck or diesel/electric train???

[Phishnoob]

The bailout is not going to make tooling, cover temporary operating expenses or encourage any new technology. It goes straight to the unions to cover all the benefits that they promised everyone.

My job had profit sharing for a while. We are now not profitable and that benefit goes away, but we are collecting a paycheck which we are expected to manage properly. There is no way my employer or any employer in this climate can agree to cover cradle to grave health care for me and my family and a cushy pension. Having subsidized health care and matching contributions to a 401K is what I consider reasonable and a good deal.

Chapter 11 will be a good thing.

[tdwyatt]

CHAPTER 11

and a loan package tied to assuring the big three make building quality, economical, high-milieage (MPG) vehicles that last well into 250K miles and STILL have a resale value, MADE in the USA and affordable so that your average family can afford to buy a new one to replace the HOG SUV sitting broken in their driveway now.

These will help solve the fuel issues with imports, reorganization will help the big 3 get out of union contracts that have sucked the lifeblood out of them, OBAMA's healthcar package will replace the union healthcare packages, and we won't have the trickle down of bad money after good through the economy (or job losses of both auto mfgrs and their suppliers), while we see positive results from the loan payback. I WANT to buy such a vehicle from the US, and while we're at it, we need to start the local PD's and Highway Patrol to start looking for speeding trucks and SUV's rather than small sportscars and other low emmissioins vehiciles, as there is nothing PI$$&$ me off more than to be passed on the Interstate by a SUV going 85 MPH with one person in the entire vehicle. I am not saying that we don't need pickups, etc, but we do not need them as signs of affluence where one person drives them to work every day. I drive a p/u that gets 20 MPG, and even at that, I only drive it either to carry a load of folks or a load of garbage or a load of lumber, etc, something you need a truck for. Everything elise involve either the bimmer at 30 MPH or the bug at 45 MPG diesel, and to me, that is still not enough when there are great vehiclies in Europe that get 60-70MPG...

We don't need to have them as one-person commuters. I guess we all will need to stop and think about what our piggish use of carbon actually does to both the economy and the ecology of our nation.




...and to think that I voted for McCain.

[mmn_usn]

What about the car from India that runs on air...

Another issue we have is too many regulations on what a car can have or do...airbags, cats, abs, running lights, governers. I will take a 69 chevy truck that I got 18mpg in over a new car any day. No power steering, power brakes and only a lap belt.

No bailout should go to the companys(banks included) it should go to the people... It is our money anyways...

[Doug1]

Originally Posted by mmn_usn

What about the car from India that runs on air...

Another issue we have is too many regulations on what a car can have or do...airbags, cats, abs, running lights, governers. I will take a 69 chevy truck that I got 18mpg in over a new car any day. No power steering, power brakes and only a lap belt.

No bailout should go to the companys(banks included) it should go to the people... It is our money anyways...

I know that there are some emerging nations building cars cheap that promise great mileage but "Runs on Air" , I gotta see that to believe it, and having driven a 69 chevy 1/2 ton( 250cid I6 /4 spd) easily 250K miles I am a bit skeptical of 18 mpg, esp since I drive in Puget Sound traffic on occasion.
i will agree that cars are over engineered to meet gov regs, nd I would love to see more cars with alternative engines, but hey gas is back down to around %3 a gal so where is the incentive?

[FishDaddy]

Originally Posted by tdwyatt

as there is nothing PI$$&$ me off more than to be passed on the Interstate by a SUV going 85 MPH

Tom, knowing you, I doubt that you've been passed by very many vehicles of any kind while driving the Beemer!!

I don't know the answer and from what I see in the news, I don't think anybody in Washington does either. The D.C. anwer to problems has always been to throw money at it an hope it goes away. That won't work with the auto industry. As you and others have pointed out, the American Auto will fade away unless the Big Three really puts their shoulders to the wheel and produce affordable, high quality autos with much better fuel economy than what they're cranking out now.

Dick

[Fat Tony]

Doug... $3 a gallon still over there??? It's $1.67 here for 87 octane...