Help! I need ideas why....

[ReefNeck]

Ok, I keep losing clownfish! I have lost a total of 10 in the past 2 months or so. I got some from DanCo, They made it just over a week then died. I thought, I'll get them somewhere else next time. I went through 6 false percs from my work. All lived over a week then died. I got 2 true percs. They lived almost 2 weeks and yesterday one died. Now I only have one true perc left. I want a pair so bad. Nothing else dies in my tank and all my levels are normal.

I have a yellow tang, He's in excellent health and very active. The Fairy wrasse I got from Atlantis Saturday night is great. He even got beat up by a pistol shrimp with a huge gash in his side and is healing nicely and very active. My Yellow Coris Wrasse is very active and healthy. Same for the Royal Gramma I have had for months.

It just seems that I can't keep clownfish alive and that is frustrating me. I can't afford another True Perc now to go with mine but still want a pair. I can pair them up myself, Don't need 2 already paired.

I just wonder if I am alone in this or if the evil clownfish gods are striking at anyone else.

Any ideas what the hell is going on? I would welcome anyone that wants to drop by and look at my tank to help with ideas. If I can't keep at least a pair of True or False percs I will be crushed as that was one reason I got into this hobby. I love them and they are supposed to be very hardy since they are in the damsel family. I feel like I have murdered too many of them and I have lost a couple hundred bucks that I can't afford in the process.

Please help if you can.

[Ocnreef]

At one time you posted you had 2 true and 2 false but they seemed to match up 1 true with 1 false? Have there been any signs of picking/fighting by the dominate female? What about a Pistol Shrimp attack?

In My Opinion...it has more to do with a fight for dominance. When more than two clowns are in the same tank it eventually comes to a dominance issue with the third party getting the boot. Things could have been amplified by having the mixed types. At first it may have seemed that the were pairing up but it could have been that they were still juvy's when purchased and over the time have developed their hierarcy. This is just my thoughts but I would try limiting your next try to two of the same type or only one of each type.

[ReefNeck]

Yes, I did. And that was just last week. Monday morning one of the False percs died. They were both a tiny bit larger than the trues but all were juvies. Then Tuesday morning the second False died. Last night one of the trues died. There was no apparent aggression at all. Unless they did it during lights out. They hung out together at seperate ends of the tank during the day in there anemones. There were no marks on the fish and they were gasping and floating all over the tank in their final hours.

I understand why you say fighting but I never saw any of that happening. Not saying it didn't but there were no marks and they all seem to be gasping when they pass.

Originally Posted by Ocnreef

At one time you posted you had 2 true and 2 false but they seemed to match up 1 true with 1 false? Have there been any signs of picking/fighting by the dominate female? What about a Pistol Shrimp attack?

In My Opinion...it has more to do with a fight for dominance. When more than two clowns are in the same tank it eventually comes to a dominance issue with the third party getting the boot. Things could have been amplified by having the mixed types. At first it may have seemed that the were pairing up but it could have been that they were still juvy's when purchased and over the time have developed their hierarcy. This is just my thoughts but I would try limiting your next try to two of the same type or only one of each type.

[forenpa1]

I have a cinamon and a false and everything seems fine although I must say that I have a 120G and the cinamon hangs in a bubble tip anenome and the false seems to hang on the other side of the tank.

My experience has always been that these fish are very hardy so I think that the other post are correct that it is some sort of dominance dispute. I previously had the false in a FO 72G that had a couple of crashes and high nitrates for a while and he came through like a trooper so I think they are hardy !!

[Ocnreef]

Were they eating normally?

[ReefNeck]

Originally Posted by Ocnreef

Were they eating normally?

Yes, They seemed to be eating fine. When I fed cyclopeeze they went nuts like the others do and gobbled pellets quickly.

[SSweet1]

Gasping for breath is a sign of either ammonia or gill fluke disease which you cant tell without a microscope. I know you told me all parameters were good but get a few different ammonia test kits, even the dip strip can register ammonia. Are you running phosban or carbon? Even if the other fish are hanging in there they may have built up a tolerance so dont rule it out just because they are fine. Check your calcium level too, Russell said at the meeting that a reading of over 500 can kill fish etc.

[ReefNeck]

Thanks Carrie. I only have the one test kit for ammonia. Can't afford another right now. Don't think that's it though since the tank has no reason to be going through a spike. Anything is possible. You needed an excuse to come over again and see the tank....Come on. Bring your test kits too. Besides, I think you could help me with an ID.

Gill flukes....Possible but wouldn't that effect my other fish as well? They are all great.

Originally Posted by SSweet1

Gasping for breath is a sign of either ammonia or gill fluke disease which you cant tell without a microscope. I know you told me all parameters were good but get a few different ammonia test kits, even the dip strip can register ammonia. Are you running phosban or carbon? Even if the other fish are hanging in there they may have built up a tolerance so dont rule it out just because they are fine. Check your calcium level too, Russell said at the meeting that a reading of over 500 can kill fish etc.

[Reefer High]

Reefneck hey are the percs you are getting are wid caught this could be the problem. Wild clowns are very susceptible to brookynella which the signs are heavy breathing, a white milky coat, ect. this can happen over night with no warning signs. Most likely the percs you have put in the tank were wild caught. There are not many people that tank raise percs i know ORA does in small numbers but they are rarely available, there is also a lady in fiji i think that does it as well( i think ben knows who she is so you may want to PM him). If you are going to try another one i woud make sure it is tank raised, and the smallest size you can find.

[ReefNeck]

I know several, if not all of the false percs were tank raised. Not 100% sure about the trues. I can;t afford any more for a while either way. Got myself in a hole buying fish stuff lately and have to back off before I make the wife mad. So far, she's been putting up with me but I don't want to push it. I finally found the perfect woman so I am not gonna screw it up.

Anybody got a small true perc they want to part with cheap?

[Reefer High]

Hey when your ready to convert the pool to saltwater we could hook you up with a good deal on some pallets of salt.

[floridareefs]

Hey Keri I suspect your Pistol Shrimp. I for one, would never keep one with fish. Aside from possible tank damage, pistol shrimp are known to shoot a deadly wavelength with the snap of the claw. This can kill a fish without the Shrimp ever touching them. I just saw a video of a pistol shrimp killing another cleaner shrimp with just the impulse shock.

[Loverotties]

Maybe a mantis ?

[ReefNeck]

Originally Posted by Loverotties

Maybe a mantis ?

Mantis don't target JUST clownfish. Nothing else is dying.

I'm slowly building my nerves, I'm about ready to go Pistol Shrimp digging.

[Ocnreef]

Here is a little something on the brookynella........

Brooklynella
	Brooklynella hostilis is found as a parasite in Marine Aquaria far more often than is commonly recognized as it tends to be overshadowed by the more frequent & well known parasites viz. Cryptocaryon irritans and Amyloodinium (Oodinium) ocellatum. Photo of Brooklynella parasite. Note cilia all along the outer surface. X 400.
	It like so many others is a ciliated protozoan which in many respects resembles its counterpart in fresh water Chilodonella ( see previous article in Aquarium net ). When conditions become favourable to its reproduction, very rapid multiplication takes place , reproduction occurs by simple binary fission, & such massive reproduction can & does cause fatalities , which is brought about by severe weakening of the host fishes. The literature reports many differing species of fish as being susceptible, & the first reports of this parasite were related by accounts from some of the more prominent (at that time) Public Aquariums, such as the New York Aquarium Steinhart, etc. Typical signs of infection Brooklynella hostilis
	Water There is little doubt that fish exposed to lowered water quality , and in particular the stress of elevated Ammonia /Nitrite levels such as are brought about in shipping, can induce an outbreak of this parasite. All the literature seems to confirm this. Behaviour Fish demonstrate lethargy, will "toy" with their food, appearing to eat & then spitting it out. Respiration becomes difficult as the Gills become heavily parasitized , & can easily be observed. Brooklynella hostilis infestation on a Damsel fish. Note typical faded body colour, as well as severe erosionof the Dorsal & Caudal fins.
	Body A "faded" appearance of small areas becomes apparent , & such areas spread outwardly as the infestation progresses. Sloughing of the epithelium will occur in later stages. Gills Gills will become massively parasitized and a smear or other examination of the gills should easily determine the cause of the infestation. Skin As the "sloughing" occurs increasingly large areas of damage can be seen, as the skin becomes broken down by the parasites activities. Histo-Patholgy Parasite can be confirmed by skin or gill smears from suspected fish. Parasites are mobile and range in size from 60x80 microns to 40x48. In shape they are heart or kidney shaped ( see illustration), and they have typically ventral organ for attachment to their host. Treatment The literature has very little on effective treatment, & the authors disagree on the application of Copper as treatment, (Stopskopf's book recommending its use, whilst Blasiola stating categorically it does not work). In this authors experience I have to agree with Blasiola, I have never found it to be effective against Brooklynella. The combination of the following treatments & techniques have worked for me, on several occasions with varying degrees of infection, to eliminate the parasite, but I have had to employ at least 2 of the methods, & often all four. With careful attention the parasite can be brought under control( eliminated), but one should be aware there is no " 24 hour" simple cure. Be very suspicious of anyone telling you that they have such a remedy. 1) Giving a "dip" in freshwater of the same temperature & pH as the Marine tank, for about 15 minutes ( careful observation must be made, during this time, to avoid distress, & the fish removed, if major problem is observed). 2) Giving a bath in Sea water with Formalin added add at a dosage of 1000 ppm for some 15 minutes. 3) Adding an Acriflavine product (such as Fish-Vet's Revive) to the tank water for a period of 2 weeks after the above treatments. 4) Taking severe steps to ensure that water quality is optimum along with the TOTAL removal of any detrital matter . I would mention that G.Basleer mentions in his book that Quinicrin gives a good result, regrettably he does not give any figures for dosage, or any contraindications. If any secondary infections with by bacteria are observed then the use of an antibiotic would be useful. The use of UV to help prevent secondary infection should be employed. It is useful to point out to the Aquarist who is intending to buy fish, that the judicious way to avoid to problems that this noxious parasite can bring to your Aquarium, is often best managed, by ensuring that your dealer has the fish in his tank for some 2 weeks prior to you taking it home. Most fish that will break out due to the stresses of transport , with this parasite will do so within this time. To be fair to your dealer, you should show goodwill, by making it a conditional purchase, i.e. offer to pay for the fish, or at least part of it, provided he keeps it, & it is alright after the period of time mentioned has elapsed. Brooklynella is not an easy parasite to eliminate, so the effort to avoid it, is worthwhile. I suspect that some of you as you read what would appear to be a depressing catalogue of parasites just waiting to attack your precious fish, may become disheartened somewhat, especially if you have had the misfortune to suffer one or more attacks in your early days in the Hobby. Therefore at the risk of been repetitive let me again emphasize that fish have an amazing ability to withstand infections, their immune system like most Veterbrates is well developed, & only when the conditions that we prepare for them or that they are exposed to, before we receive them are substandard, can we anticipate outbreaks which will adversely impact their health & our enjoyment of them. Thus once again, everything you can do, to maximize the conditions in your Aquarium as well as ensure that you buy fish that have been properly collected, ( not with Cyanide for example), held in conditions at all stages of the collecting/shipping processes, can you reasonably expect to have little or no problem. I can hear some of you saying to yourselves, "how can I know, how the fish are collected /shipped etc". This is not easy, but careful reading of the literature, observing how your dealer handles his fish ( does he make any effort at quarantine etc), asking about his suppliers, (does he import directly, or buy from a wholesaler, ) does the wholesaler quarantine the fish etc. All of this will give you a far better idea of what to expect with the fish you buy. Furthermore, you should carefully observe how many dead or sick fish are evident in the dealers tanks, good dealers, who buy from good suppliers, will have far less than those that do not. All of this will enable you NOT to eliminate the risk, but greatly reduce it. And we'll see you next month. Shawn Prescott.