Unknown Worms - any ideas?

[crvz]

well good luck as you continue hunting the mantis. I know it can be frustrating capture stuff at times.

[JJP161]

Originally Posted by BarbMazz

Hi, Joe.. I have a TBS tank, too. Mine's been set up since mid-April. I have at least one mantis, and who knows? maybe more. Mine has not wreaked any havoc that I'm aware of. Have you ever seen yours?

Mine, I believe, is a "smasher" meaning he will smash snails/crabs. I have seen him dragging shells back to his hole on occasion, but my cuc population is staying up there so not a problem. Plus, I make sure to feed him when I feed the tank. He now comes up to a rock at the top of the tank and I slip him some hunks with tongs. I figure a fed mantis is a happy mantis that won't steal my good stuff.

If your mantis is a "spearer" he could be the culprit in your fish deaths as that's what the spearers hunt for. Both types of mantis are found in the Caribbean.

There are "mantis traps" on the market... you bait them, and when a critter goes into it a door closes so they can't escape. I've read that mantis are too smart for anything else but that! Here's a link to the trap:
http://www.aquariumguys.com/xtermina...rimp-trap.html

I also have lots of gorilla crabs; slowly getting them with occasionally set traps.

I haven't seen any worms like the ones you have pictured. I have lots of spaghetti worms and feather dusters. I'm sure the kind you have are in my tank, but I haven't seen them.

I'm so sorry you're having all these livestock losses! That's awful, and must be very upsetting for you.

Do you have a link to more information about your tank? I'd love to read up on it to see the size, age, parameters, etc.

Lastly, have you contacted Richard about the problems you're having? Or looked at the hh pictures on the TBS website? There may be some ID help there.

Hi Barb, thank-you for jumping in here and it's good to hear from a fellow TBS person. We have in fact seen the mantis, but he did not show his face for about 3 or 4 months. We heard the clicking and had a few snails and hermits dissappear but he never fell for the traps.

Finally, he just started coming out into the open and he is actually cool looking. So like you mentioned I started feeding him with the thought that a full mantis would be happy and thinking if it became necessary we could trap him. Well after a few days of him taking food from us, we had 3 fish and a brittle star disappear. So tried catching him and he even pounded the forceps I was using. I pulled the rock but he some how escaped through another exit. After that we have never seen him, we still hear him and the death toll continues to rise. I do believe he is a smasher as he has torn the rocks to pieces making all kinds of tunnels.

We did try the exterminator trap many times without success. The gorilla crabs do fall for the shrimp in the glass trick.

The worms may be safe, but at this time we have lost so much livestock we are pulling in suspects and placing them in to a seperate quarintine container.

I have had some contact with Richard and we have tried many of his ideas, but he did mention the mantis can be very tough. I do want to say as I'm not sure I mentioned in this thread that I am still a huge TBS fan and give Richard and TBS my highest recommendation. Their "recipe" is awesome and before this disaster struck my tank was amazing and by far less maintenance than my freshwater tank ever was. The rock I received was awesome and just covered in life. My loss is really my fault for not responding to the warnings soonere and more aggressively. The ID pics helped some, but the unknown worm pic is the one that looks the most like this unknown worm. So anyways before we start rebuilding the tank we want to make sure all of the "bad guys" are gone. Thank-you again for your assistance and please we are open to any suggestions.

Tank Specs before current issues
75 gallon tank up since 2/08

150lbs live rock
75lbs live sand
30g sump with protein skimmer
60 blue leg hermits
35 astrea snails
3 brittle stars
1 slipper lobster
1 decorator crab
1 very small decorator crab
1 condy anemone
1 porcelin crab
4 cucumbers
1 large long tentacle anemone (i think)
2 clown fish - who were living in the LTA
1 foxface
1 butterfly
1 6 line wrasse
1 goby
2 cardinals
1 leather coral
anemone corals
2 zooanthid Corals?
3 mushroom
christmas tree worms
feather dusters
a lot of "baby" brittle stars

[Goldenmean]

Hi Joe!
So Sorry to hear of you problems and loss of livestock.
I have been reading many of your previous threads trying to figure out what is going on.

I have a 55g tank with all TBS that was set up last August. I have 2 wennerae mantis in my DT and IME I have found them to be awesome tank inhabitants. I feed them well and they pretty much leave the other inhabitants alone. They have probably taken out a few snails and hermits but they certainly have not decimated the population. One did kill a sea cucumber early on but that was after the sea cuke spent 3 days over the mantis' lair. I have not yet added fish to this tank but I do plan on doing so and as my mantis are smashers - not spearers) I think they will be safe. I also had many many gorilla crabs that I have trapped with an inverted water bottle or using some fresh squid as bait on a wooden skewer stabbed them. The fresh meat on the skewer will entice them to come out of their lair and then you can make crab kabobs.

So for your problems:

My biggest pest I'm chasing is a 3"-4" mantis and the rock crabs. They have killed 1 butterfly, 1 cardinal, 2 clowns, 1 goby, 1 wrasse, 2 brittle stars, 1 anemone over about a 72 hour period. Plus at least 15 snails and 20-25 blue leg hermits.

IMHO a 3 inch mantis from the Gulf of Mexico and some gorilla crabs cannot create such carnage in just 3 days. They are not evil and just kill to kill. They kill to eat.
They would not kill an anemone anyway.
I really believe something else has gone wrong and the shrimp and crabs were just cleaning up like a good CUC. Also in my experience the mantis would go after the peppermint shrimp first. Peppermints are nocturnal so they are usually hiding in the rock during the day when the mantis is active. The peppermints would be the most tasty and easiest prey for a mantis.

SO if it is not the mantis and the crabs what is going on?
I read a thread about a LTA that had gone missing.
If the Nem died that could have cause a sudden spike in NH3. The TBS rock would clear it up pretty quickly so If you did not test at just the right time you may not have caught the spike. So my first thought is that ammonia did in all the livestock that you have lost. That is my first thought anyway.

Another possibility is a temperature spike while you were on vacation or a power outage that shuts off the pumps and depleted oxygen in the tank. ???

How to catch the mantis?
As you know this is not easy. Right now you have the LR is 5 different containers and the tank and yet You have no idea where he is at. You are unlikely to find him by sound. You need to watch the tank and find out where his home is at. He will have one rock that is his primary lair. You may see him in other places but he will have one rock that he goes home to at night. If I were you this is what I would do. I would replace the rock back into the tank and watch. If you see him do not just try to chase him then but keep watching him. Find out where his home is at. Then any night you can remove that rock and use seltzer water to get him out. I see when you have all the rock in the tank it is full of rock so It could be hard to watch all the rock. I would add the rock from the containers that you thought you heard clicking sounds coming from first so you have more of a chance of finding the mantis.

I truly do not believe that the mantis and the gorilla crabs have caused all the deaths in you tank. Something else happened or is going on. Gorilla crabs can move frags around and maybe if it is a really large crab get lucky with a sleeping fish like a wrasse sleeping in the sand. Some of the fish you lost pretty much stay in the water column where if they were healthy would not fall prey to a mantis or crabs.

Best of Luck for you and your tank.
If you have any questions just ask and I will be watching to help in any way I can.

[BarbMazz]

Joe, I completely agree with Jeff's assessment. I don't see these things happening because of the mantis and crabs. It's just too much in such a short time period. With mantis, things will gradually disappear and they don't kill randomly, only when they need to eat.

I'd suggest slowing down on your hunt, and try to relax about the hh's. Take three deep breaths!

Do some thorough testing of all the parameters you can, and try to think about and list ANYthing you'd done differently around your tank just before that 72hr period when the deaths occurred. Think of things like food changes, media changes, things in the air around the skimmer (if you have one), chemicals used in the house, equipment malfunction possibilities like heater failure, stray voltage, etc.... things like that. Like Jeff, I have a feeling it may have to do with the anemone disappearing; they are known to cause catastrophic events when they die un-noticed.

Best of luck to you! I hope you can get to the point where you can enjoy your TBS experience like I have. It's an investment for sure!

[JJP161]

Goldenmean and Barb,

Thank-you both for jumping in here, like I said it's great to hear from other TBS folks. I guess I do need to be more specific not all of those things dissappeared in an exact 72 hr time frame. I have been overly excited about this but it has been more of a gradual thing with a sudden jump here at the end. It's just driving me crazy to lose so much stuff. I didn't mean to misstate the facts I just was trying to find answers and I hadn't really sat down to plot the time line of events. That is my total loss, I am sure the crab and snail population has gradually disappeared over the last few months but with that much rock it's impossible to tell. The same with the Brittle Stars, I just now realized I only have 1 left. Then 1 clown went missing, then it's hard tell about the goby and wrasse as you rarely saw them. The butterfly was the only fish we found any remains of and he showed signs of physical trauma but I suppose it could have been before or after he was dead. As for the total loss of fish I wasn't sure until all the rock came out what was truly left. So the fish could have been a more gradual thing and only seemed like 72 hrs. It's kind of like when we go to fires, people say it took 20 minutes for us to get there when it actually took 2-3 minutes. So it seemed like 3 days but was more. It just seems like that when I'm on the sidelines, helpless so to speak. I did find one dead peppermint at one point in time, but honestly the peppermints would be right next to the mantis the few days he was making an appearance he did not pay them any attention. In fact when we would feed him pieces of shrimp, the peppermints would try to steal it and he still wouldn't do anything.

The missing anemone was also before our trip and I tested twice a day and nothing. I also have the ammonia thing in the tank that changes color and it never read anything. No temperature spikes or power outages either. The house is kept at 70 degrees and the tank was being kept at 75. Over a two week period the tank was raised up to 80 at the recommendation of the LFS to combat the ich and it seemed to work. We did lose one fish to the ich now that I think of it. But that was all. We are gradually dropping the temp back to the TBS recommended 75.

As for the mantis and gorilla I was cool keeping them in there and feeding them because they looked so cool. Now at this point I can't explain the events so my goal was to pull out any potentail bad guys and I still don't know what all I will find. I do agree I don't believe it is one mantis and 2 crabs wreaking havoc on all of the tank. But I have seen one mantis, found 2 large gorilla crabs, 1 large hairless looking gorilla and about 15 more between the size of a dime and a quarter. Plus 4 of the bristle worms and 4-5 of the unknown worms. So I could see the combined efforts of all of these guys together causing some serious issues. So I am overeacting I'm sure but before I risk putting in another fish I want all of the bad guys out I can find.

There have been no media changes, no other changes, no filter changes as I follow the TBS recipe to the letter and have been having a wonderful experience up till now. Which reminds me the ich was my fault, I failed to properly QT the clowns. I still love TBS, and I will still use them in the future. This is my lack of experience and knowledge without a doubt. I just want to know how to get back on track and not risk any more creatures. Fortunately the foxface and remaining cardinal are doing great. Thank-you again and please give me any suggestions you have.

[Goldenmean]

Joe I had forgot that you had an ich outbreak before too.
This could have played a larger roll in your fishes demise than you think. This is what could have weakened the fish to where the crabs (including hermits) could finish off the fish.

So besides wanting to remove the mantis and the hermits you need to address ich in your tank. Your tank has been exposed to the parasite ich. There is only one way that I know works to remove ich from your tank and that is to remove all fish to a hospital and let your DT remain fishless for at least 6 weeks. This is the life cycle of the parasite and with out a fish in the tank it will die off. Ich is in you tank not just on your fish that is just part of the life cycle. Your remaining fish may be healthy enough to fight off the disease now but if they get stressed for any reason it can reappear to you and cause death. Any new fish you add could also get the parasite and they may not be healthy enough to fight it off due to the stress of capture and shipping.
So what I am saying is that while the foxface and cardinal appear to be doing great they are allowing the parasite to continue in your tank. All I can tell you is what I would do. I would remove them to a hospital tank and treat them for ich even though they are showing no signs of the parasite. Then when you have left the DT fishless for 6 weeks and you return them to the DT. All new fish need to spend 6 weeks in QT so as to not reintroduce the parasite to the QT.

I am glad you have caught your breath. I would hate to see you cook that awesome TBS rock in a panic. That would be a shame.

We can help you though this.

[JJP161]

Goldenmean,

We actually have a QT tank setup now, just waiting for the water to age for a day. Should be transferring the fish in tomorrow morning when I get off duty? Now should I leave the corals and remaining inverts and anemone to the QT tank as well? and should I hit the DT with a flatworm treatment that is "reef" safe?

I'm still working on the 3 deep breaths - it's just such kick in the teeth, the tank was so incredible looking and every week we were finding new stuff and then BOOM! On the bright side we did rescue one of the "baby" brittle stars and the porcelin crab we had recently found.

[Goldenmean]

That flat worm that you posted a pic of in another thread is no big deal. I had a couple of those and they are harmless. They are not the type of flatworm that eat corals so do not worry about it. I would not use any flat worm treatment. You do not need it.
The corals and other inverts can remain in the tank. They do not host the ich parasite only fish can.

Make sure you test the QT twice daily for NH3 and NO2 and be prepared for large water changes

Now take another deep breath.
That flat worm is no worry.

[BarbMazz]

Joe, I know how hard this must be! Jeff, very sound advice.

Once the fish are out of the display, the fallow time will cause the ich parasite to die off. During that time you will still be able to enjoy watching your dt... a coral-only tank is wonderful thing!

From what I've read, it's hardly ever a good idea to treat the display tank. I agree with Jeff that the worms you found are harmless, and that no treatment is necessary.

Hang in there, dood! I think you're on the way to stabilizing your system; it will take some time but you'll get there.

[aquawolf]

Great discussion.

Thank you Jeff and Barb for pitching in and trying to help him resolve this situation.

[JJP161]

First I just want to say you guys (gals) are awesome. I am standing down from defcon 5 first thing in the morning...

We will move the fish over to the QT tank and perhaps the last few snails and hermit crabs. The fish will be there for at least 6 weeks, maybe 8 to be safe. The snails and hermits only for a few days just to remove any potential food sources for the mantis and crabs. Then when drop in the bait, they should be a little easier to attract and remove. On that note - what works best? Shrimp, squid, etc? and honestly the idea is to remove the bad crabs and mantis without harm as the local fish store will accept them. I may even consider a species tank...hhmmm. Then no fish in DT for at least the 8 weeks and I will start slowly replacing my clean up crew, over the next few weeks.

Any other suggestions, thoughts or comments, please let me know. Thank-you all again.

Joe

[Goldenmean]

Joe!
You now have a plan of action!
You are most welcome. I am just glad that I can be of some help and I know Barb feels the same way.

Just remember not to treat the fish in QT with the snails and hermits in QT as that could kill the snails and hermits. Now with no hermits and snails in the DT the mantis will still have lots of food in barnacle and lil clams that are in the TBS rock but he will have to work for them and you will hear the sound of the mantis smashing rock.
What you use for bait for the crabs does not matter, shrimp, squid will work.

To trap the mantis you will have to be very LUCKY.
Your best bet again is to find his home lair and remove that one rock and pour club soda into his home over a container of SW. The container of SW is to catch him when flies out of the rock.

Here is a couple of pics from my tank.
The first is the "flat worm" like you have.
then a crab kabob
and my water bottle crab trap. notice there is a crab in the trap.

[aquawolf]

Okay Joe, in order to help you out with the identification of friend versus foe worms I took the following pictures.

These are pictures of Bristle Worms and they are friends and good members of your CUC.










HTH

[JJP161]

Jeff & Aquawolf,

Thank-you for the great pictures, very helpful. All the rock is back in the DT and we did find another 8 or 9 of the gorilla crabs or whatever they are. Unfortunately a few of the bristle worms are dead but we did find a couple more of the bad unknown worms that look like the Eunicids. Still no mantis, but my fish are in QT, except the snails and hermits are still in the DT as we were up all night and I forgot my little mantis starving plan.

On the worms, which one leave the colorful sand trails behind? I will keep working with the bottle traps for our little mantis friend until I can isolate his rock. I tell you what we didexamine every rock with a flashlight as it went back into the tank and we never saw any sign of him. He is good.

Thank-you both again very much. You have been such a big help and we are so clueless on the saltwater still. But we are trying.

[JJP161]

Quick question on the QT tank? what kind of filter is best? I have a marineland emperor with the powerfilter/biowheel combo. A small protein skimmer? a sponge filter? Thank-you