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Ich, lets talk methods..

95K views 284 replies 48 participants last post by  ChiWing 
#1 ·
Just wanted to strike a conversation on Ich. It seems that all of the folks in the hobby deal with this at one point in time or another.

Maybe we can start a dedicated thread here in PHD for a guide to the problem.

Ich is not the best in the world, but can be delt with rather easily if one has the knowledge of First, what Ich is, and two how it affects a fish.

I encourage everyone and anyone to post about there exp with Ich. And debait the methods that have worked for them.

First things first What is Ich, how to Identify it, and why do we get it???
 
#4 ·
Im glad to get it rolling, many seem to have formed Ich to a myth and many theorys are out there about Treatment, how to ID, and so on.

i've tried the hypo salinity and copper and both without luck.

i did however stop an outbreak by removing all the healthy fish and place them in a tank with some copper for two months to allow the ich to die off in the main tank.

after that horrible event i bought a tank for quarantine. i'll never just hope and pray for a new fish to be free of ich again.....
Glad to here you were able to stop it, but will get in to the reason you were able to get rid of it in the time period you describe.:)

OK, what is Ich?
 
#3 ·
i've tried the hypo salinity and copper and both without luck.

i did however stop an outbreak by removing all the healthy fish and place them in a tank with some copper for two months to allow the ich to die off in the main tank.

after that horrible event i bought a tank for quarantine. i'll never just hope and pray for a new fish to be free of ich again.....
 
#5 ·
I have only dealt with ich once, but the way I beat it was this.... I reduced my light cycle to 4hrs a day in hopes that a darker tank would reduce stress and help the fish feel more safe/secure, I fed with garlic and selcon soaked food, and all but stopped working on my tank. In time the level of stress reduced in my fish and with the garlic/selcon combo their immune system built up and rid itself of the parasite
 
#10 ·
Bingo, you hit the nail on the head. Parasite, Cryptocaryon irritans, Ciliate Protazoan (single celled Organism).

I think dealing with the stress issue goes a lot further in dealing with ich. IMO medications are a last resort to save a fish that can't be helped with stress reduction alone.
You are correct, IME and through science (which Ill dig up some links that prove this).

Ok how about a life cycle? And an appropriate ID?

This goes back to why people mistake a long period of treatment with curing the Ich.
 
#9 ·
I have had multiple fish with ich (get all my fish at Petco) released into my tank...

none of the fish I added had more then a few spots, and about 1-2 weeks later all the spots were gone. I think dealing with the stress issue goes a lot further in dealing with ich. IMO medications are a last resort to save a fish that can't be helped with stress reduction alone.
 
#12 ·
To my understanding it is something that is always there... An enviromental factor. You can have an ich free tank and because you add nothing but for whatever reason a fish gets extremely stressed.... It can develope ich. The best way I know how to describe it is like this..... We has humans have many "layers" to our skin, and a healthy fish has a slime coat over its skin/scales. When a fish is stressed it sheds the slime coat which would be the same as a human getting burnt and losing the top two layers of skin. Now we as humans are a lot more prone to infections and other complications because we have lost the outer layers of skin. Same as a fish. They are stressed and it lowers the immune system and sheds the slime coat. Ich is a parasite that "digs or burrows" inside of the fishes skin. Now it all comes back around.... A fish with little or no slime coat is the same as a human with the top layers of skin missing.... More prone to infections and other enviromental factors.
Sorry for the book. Let me know if I confused anyone.
 
#13 ·
Ok Ich is not always in the column. It gets introduced to our systems.
wheather it be from new fish, rocks, and other means.

But it is a parasite that has a direct Life Cycle.
Now the big problem is Ich depending on conditions can lie and wait.
It can stay in its Developmental (tomont) stage for a week to more than a month.

So the life cycle???
 
#21 ·
Now Im no Ich expert; never even had it before(knock on wood). From what Im reading the tomont stage is the first of four. The parasite attaches itself to the substrate;substrate being sand, rock or glass. It forms a membrane and starts reproducing. I know I read something about temperature...Sound good?
 
#23 ·
#25 ·
In the trophont stage the parasite burrows into the hosts(fish) skin. The fish will have tiny white spots on it's body. Once it has burrowed, it is constantly moving around killing the surrounding cells of the fish. The parasite then feeds on the dead cells and body fluid. As the parasite feeds, like anything else, it grows. The white spots on the host become larger. These parasites can get into the gills of the fish causing heavy breathing. The difficult breathing can cause the fish to become lethargic. This stage lasts 3-7 days depending on the temperature of the water. After the parasite has matured it drops off of the host and attaches itself to the substrate, entering the Tomont stage.

What did I miss?
 
#26 ·
In the trophont stage the parasite burrows into the hosts(fish) skin. The fish will have tiny white spots on it's body. Once it has burrowed, it is constantly moving around killing the surrounding cells of the fish. The parasite then feeds on the dead cells and body fluid. As the parasite feeds, like anything else, it grows. The white spots on the host become larger. These parasites can get into the gills of the fish causing heavy breathing. The difficult breathing can cause the fish to become lethargic. This stage lasts 3-7 days depending on the temperature of the water. After the parasite has matured it drops off of the host and attaches itself to the substrate, entering the Tomont stage.

What did I miss?
Not much DC.

So now we are getting somewhere and I want to add to your post.
Here is the point that is very important in this stage.
Chemical treatments are not effective to the bored parasite.

So why is that?

And why is there so many marketed products that claim in this stage you should treat??
 
#28 ·
Indeed DC. So all the treatments claimed by an LFS and retailers that when it is in this stage you should qt the fish and treat it.
This is plain and simple NOT TRUE.

So all the diluted remedys, and measure taken to "cure" Ich are done in Vain.
And simply not affecting the fish in any way other than additional stress.

So why do many reccomend Garic soaked food, and selcon during this stage of life?
 
#30 ·
Well there are a few articles I would like to Share with TRT that I have been able to find. Ill start with this one, I find it to be very informative, and usefull to where it all started.

Article pulled from Wetweb Media:

(The use of garlic for marine ich started when one person was examining the effectiveness of garlic against nematodes and Cestodes on infected puffer fish when they noticed a general decrease in Cryptocaryon irritans incidence and proposed feeding garlic to fish as a preventative. From there the legend of garlic has spread. Allicin, a.k.a. Diallyl thiosulfinate (or Diallyl disulphide-oxide), has been identified as the chief active pharmaceutical ingredient in garlic (Allium sativum). It has some antibacterial, antiviral and anti protozoal ability. Allicin further has a remarkable ability to permeate living tissue. It is hard to get garlic's smell off your skin after contact with the raw material. In a parasitic protozoan infestation similar to "Marine Ich", there are usually two major insults to the fish's physiology, the gross tissue damage committed by the Protozoans, and the secondary infection. There is speculation on the garlic's apparent ability to deliver damage to the parasites themselves -with numerous claims of outright detachment of C .irritans trophonts (the burrowing Protozoans) and tomonts (the "egg cysts") as a result. With its partially sulfurous chemical signature, there is the potential to mask the chemical cues that enable a parasite's recognition of the host, potentially confusing the invader and further suppressing the havoc itwreaks. This means garlic therapy could benefit even uninfected fish, allowing them to escape detection by host-hunting C. irritans tomites Allicin is unstable and highly reactive. Much of the potency has been lost in commercial preparation, and there is no shortage of neutralizing substances in the way to delivering the drug to the fish's infected parts. If the garlic is fed to fish, the acid in the stomach can irreversibly neutralize the alliinase. Even if some gets through, it must then bypass the liver, and interact with the blood resulting in a reduction of hemoglobin to methemoglobin, lowering oxygen transport (not a good thing). By adding the garlic directly to the water there is the problem of dilution, and the interaction with the biological soup of the tank water to neutralize any Allicin You can again either overwhelm this barrier via massive dosage; with the risk of impact this time on microorganisms throughout the aquarium, or you bypass contact with the water by mixing it with oily vehicles. This will just float to the surface, and the oil reduces the potency of Allicin by incarcerating it. On top of that there is no standard prescription formula like "X milligrams of garlic medication per Y grams of patient tissue, or water volume over Z days" like there is for conventional treatment with Cupramine where ingredients can be measured. As yet the effectiveness and safety of garlic has not been supported with proper science and reproducible clinical trials.) (Mike Lomb)

Now this is realy going in to the scientific behind Garlic.

There are several others I have and will provide that go in to other reasons for Garlic, such as an Immune boost, and general nutritional value.

Now the reason I reccomend doing so is my fish have proven to me time after time they eat vigerously when the food has been soaked in Garlic. Much more so then just regular feedings.
Methodology behid this, when you become ill it is important to keep your immune system in tip top shape to fight off infection, disease, virus and so on. So if you have a fish that has become ill and loss of appitight how are they keeping there immune system tip top with no nutrition??? Does Garlic provide added Nutrition to fish? Some articles suggest it does, but no scientific Data to prove this exists, atleast that I have found.

I feed Garlic to get them to eat, and stay interested in there food. The food its self will provide needed nutrition.
 
#107 ·
I have had great luck with using garlic to help my fish get rid of ICH. I've removed fish for 8 weeks using copper in quarantine only to get ich when they went back in the display. Soaked food in garlic for a week or two and the ich was gone. I have also done fresh water dips to get the majority of the ich off and than continued to feed garlic. Had fish covered in ich and after garlic all ich was gone. I continue to use garlic for a few days after all ich is gone and than I will feed garlic for a few days before bringing a new fish home. I haven't had ich in over year but I"m sure I will have it again. I also found that garlic juice from the grocery store is only $3 compared to garlic at the fish store which is $20. I just reuse the eye dropper bottle though. I'm a firm believer in garlic because it's worked multiple times for me. A new fish sometimes brings it on due to the stress.

Well there are a few articles I would like to Share with TRT that I have been able to find. Ill start with this one, I find it to be very informative, and usefull to where it all started.

Article pulled from Wetweb Media:

(The use of garlic for marine ich started when one person was examining the effectiveness of garlic against nematodes and Cestodes on infected puffer fish when they noticed a general decrease in Cryptocaryon irritans incidence and proposed feeding garlic to fish as a preventative. From there the legend of garlic has spread. Allicin, a.k.a. Diallyl thiosulfinate (or Diallyl disulphide-oxide), has been identified as the chief active pharmaceutical ingredient in garlic (Allium sativum). It has some antibacterial, antiviral and anti protozoal ability. Allicin further has a remarkable ability to permeate living tissue. It is hard to get garlic's smell off your skin after contact with the raw material. In a parasitic protozoan infestation similar to "Marine Ich", there are usually two major insults to the fish's physiology, the gross tissue damage committed by the Protozoans, and the secondary infection. There is speculation on the garlic's apparent ability to deliver damage to the parasites themselves -with numerous claims of outright detachment of C .irritans trophonts (the burrowing Protozoans) and tomonts (the "egg cysts") as a result. With its partially sulfurous chemical signature, there is the potential to mask the chemical cues that enable a parasite's recognition of the host, potentially confusing the invader and further suppressing the havoc itwreaks. This means garlic therapy could benefit even uninfected fish, allowing them to escape detection by host-hunting C. irritans tomites Allicin is unstable and highly reactive. Much of the potency has been lost in commercial preparation, and there is no shortage of neutralizing substances in the way to delivering the drug to the fish's infected parts. If the garlic is fed to fish, the acid in the stomach can irreversibly neutralize the alliinase. Even if some gets through, it must then bypass the liver, and interact with the blood resulting in a reduction of hemoglobin to methemoglobin, lowering oxygen transport (not a good thing). By adding the garlic directly to the water there is the problem of dilution, and the interaction with the biological soup of the tank water to neutralize any Allicin You can again either overwhelm this barrier via massive dosage; with the risk of impact this time on microorganisms throughout the aquarium, or you bypass contact with the water by mixing it with oily vehicles. This will just float to the surface, and the oil reduces the potency of Allicin by incarcerating it. On top of that there is no standard prescription formula like "X milligrams of garlic medication per Y grams of patient tissue, or water volume over Z days" like there is for conventional treatment with Cupramine where ingredients can be measured. As yet the effectiveness and safety of garlic has not been supported with proper science and reproducible clinical trials.) (Mike Lomb)

Now this is realy going in to the scientific behind Garlic.

There are several others I have and will provide that go in to other reasons for Garlic, such as an Immune boost, and general nutritional value.

Now the reason I reccomend doing so is my fish have proven to me time after time they eat vigerously when the food has been soaked in Garlic. Much more so then just regular feedings.
Methodology behid this, when you become ill it is important to keep your immune system in tip top shape to fight off infection, disease, virus and so on. So if you have a fish that has become ill and loss of appitight how are they keeping there immune system tip top with no nutrition??? Does Garlic provide added Nutrition to fish? Some articles suggest it does, but no scientific Data to prove this exists, atleast that I have found.

I feed Garlic to get them to eat, and stay interested in there food. The food its self will provide needed nutrition.
 
#31 ·
Awesome thread Mike.. I have never delt with ICH either. But I will be reading along... I too believe that garlic is a great way to get your fish to eat.. after all garlic is really good for us why wouldn't it be good for them too.. in moderation of course.. don't want them eating spagetti everyday.
 
#33 ·
Does garlic help with their immune system at all? or Do you believe it is just something that triggers their feeding responses? I too have seen fish go crazy for food that is treated with garlic.. Also what is better to use? the fresh cloves that we extract the oils from of the store processed stuff?
 
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