Refugiums

[Geoff]

how usefull do you think these are?

G~

[ski1297]

I do not think its so much the refugium its self but what you put in it that help. Like plants or live rock. I do not have a sump or a refugium on my tank so I put the plants in my main tank. I think plants can be a very good filter in there own right.

[Caoineag]

Well Geoff, that depends, I have a refugium that is over half the size of my main tank (37 to a 55) so I think I can safely say that mine will work as I intended it to.

It has my equipment away from the main tank, it hides copepods for a future mandarin fish who is still at least 4 months away, and it provides pH stability by having opposite lights. Its also a cool place to watch lr mature without the influence of fishies since like it or not, all fish will change the life development of lr.

[ski1297]

Originally Posted by Caoineag

Well Geoff, that depends, I have a refugium that is over half the size of my main tank (37 to a 55) so I think I can safely say that mine will work as I intended it to.

It has my equipment away from the main tank, it hides copepods for a future mandarin fish who is still at least 4 months away, and it provides pH stability by having opposite lights. Its also a cool place to watch lr mature without the influence of fishies since like it or not, all fish will change the life development of lr.

Good info! One thing I wish I could have is opposite light.

[Geoff]

what is the difference between a refugium and a sump?

G~

[Geoff]

Originally Posted by Caoineag

Well Geoff, that depends, I have a refugium that is over half the size of my main tank (37 to a 55) so I think I can safely say that mine will work as I intended it to.

It has my equipment away from the main tank, it hides copepods for a future mandarin fish who is still at least 4 months away, and it provides pH stability by having opposite lights. Its also a cool place to watch lr mature without the influence of fishies since like it or not, all fish will change the life development of lr.

do not mean to pick on you, but you were first.

do you have pods in your fuge now? if so, do an experiment for me. put a filter sock over your outlet for 24hrs. let me know how many pods are in the filter sock.

this is assuming the outlets are plumbed after the fuge.

G~

[Caoineag]

Actually at the moment, my refugium isn't the one with the copepod explosion, its my main tank!

Pods usually don't swim much though and I sure wouldn't expect them to overflow into the main tank. The idea is that should I need to copepods, I have a source to feed from (hot swapping rocks, cutting algae and transporting it to the main tank, etc) not a continous flowing source, but a source to be sure (its a hatchery, not a feeding tube )


Sorry if that ruins your plan to show how ineffective they are for pod feeding, I think of it as an insurance policy, not a lifeline because my main tank should produce enough food for a mandarin (remember, I am the one with the algae biotope) and still not let him wipe it out.

My refugium flows naturally down (well sort of sideways but its still gravity) into the main tank and while copepods don't really travel much if you have a tank as alive as mine, turn off the lights for awhile and then check out all the critters swimming in your water (you would be surprised) and those critters are definitely swimming. (A sock would catch lots of worms given my tank, I have seen them swim around and boy do they hate it when you turn the light on at the wrong time )

As to the sump and refugium thing, here is the answer for me:

1.A sump goes under the main, a refugium goes beside or above

2. A refugium has life, a sump just holds water and mechanical filtration (and equipment, but for me, I put that in both)

3. A refugium is lighted so that it can have plant and animal life

4. A refugium is sort of a control in the experiment of fishkeeping, its what plant life looks like without fish pressure on it which can help you figure out how to adjust the main tank better.


That answer all your questions? If not, ask more.

[motorslave]

Good thread! Okay Geoff, for arguments sake, lets say a fuge with LS in containers for easy removal and cleaning of the fuge itself. With large amounts of macro and an easily cleaned bottom to help the build up of detritus, what would be the reason for not doing it? Of course this would be for someone who doesnt mind having soem extra plumbing and has the sopace. Make it a gravity feed to the main, after the sump/skimmer. You may say the skimmer will pull nutrients for the macro but Ive seen plenty of large skimmers runnning on systems that have algae issues.
Let er rip!

R

[Geoff]

the way i see it. the fuge is just a way to keep phosphates in a system, it just happens to also be the way i feel about DSB's.

why keep it in the system when it can easily be removed?

as with anything in reefing there are exceptions, for instance if you plan on having a lagoonal biotope than a refugium is fine, because you will prolly have your main tank setup the same way.

for a reef top biotope, i feel that a refugium does not help at all. it just keeps the fish poo and phosphates in the system.

Caoineag- why have algae at all in your system? are you trying for a lagoonal biotope? if algae can grow than there is excess nutrients in the system, correct? why not remove this excess nutrients before the algae can uptake them? why not set up a small 10g tank just for your pods? that way you can feed it all you want and not have to worry about water quality. keeping pods and keeping water quality in check in a mature system is a fight.

when i ran a refugium it was also gravity fed. i found it was just acting like settling tank.

G~

[motorslave]

Phosphates still in the system but arent they locked up in the macro? I havent had issues with nutrients yet but Im just trying to see both sides. Fuges interest me.
Everything even the sump acts as a settling tank. Thus the sand in removeable containers. You can siphon the tank and change the sand out easily when its at its end. Would a properly designed or well thought out fuge not be an assett? A little extra oomphh for nutrient removal? Of course everything takes effort to keep clean and healthy.

R

[Caoineag]

Why have algae in an algae biotope? Umm, let me think about that one. If you are asking why I would chose one, the answer is simple. The fish I built this system for want an algae biotope, they will only thrive in an algae biotope. Corals are not my pets, I rate critters and strange things I find on lr as far more interesting than a tank that is sterile with lots of corals.

I appreciate the fact that the majority of reefers are so obsessed with their corals that they happily starve certain fish to death and need their tanks spotless and sterile but please appreciate that when you look at my tank you see evil nasty algae of various types that is dirty but when I look at your favorite tank I see sterility and a few pieces of coral and am equally disgusted. Different strokes for different folks.

My current problem with my refugium is that it is too sterile. Maybe its not lit well enough, maybe the skimmer is just taking too much out, but its not growing hardly at all.

I have had algae die offs in the main tank, as time goes by the type of algae growing is changing (current incarnation looks bryzoan but more spread out). My refugium isn't for water purification, as I said, its serves many different functions but you will notice I did not list water purification as one of them.

You said your refugium acted as a settling tank, sounds to me like you have that problem in your main system as well then because both are setup the same on mine, one tank with fishies, one tank without, that is the only main difference.

As to why keep nutrients in a system when they can be removed, the answer for me is simple, so that the nutrients can feed more things. A sterile system could not support the critters I have in my tanks and they are far more interesting than any fish or coral could be to me. I like my system, you like yours, sounds like we shouldn't trade.

Just a note, I also have a DSB on both, my jawfish loves the one as does the medusa worms I have and various other worms and critters. This is not an issue you and I will ever see eye to eye on because our goals are different.

[VWD]

Geoff, I am going to make this short, They work, I have used the Refurgiums and they keep the nitrates down, just have to prune the macro often, good water. But The think I like the most about them is my seahorse tank is pretty much set up as one. I have live rock and macro. The only thing I have on it is a power head for movement and a airstone skimmer part of the time. I feed the seahorses more then I would a normal tank and do very few water changes. Refurgiums work and work well. This is one healty tank. My trigger tank also had a refugium and that is it. It had dead corals and one piece of live rock. and It is keeping the nitrates in check. I think they make your life easy.

[piberoptikz]

Yep, Refugiums works!

[motorslave]

Caoineag, I think it depends on the biotope. Sps come from the front of the reef. Low nutrients high flow. Not conducive to an algae biotope, but not sterile. Most BB are not done for asthetics. They serve a very specific purpose. primarily to provide the best circumsatnces for an SPS system.
Starving fish? Not sure about that. Most everyone I know takes good care of all the animals in the system they have. If researched and properly designed it all works well together. Fish get fed, corals get what they need and the tank stays clean and clear. There is more maintainence required to keep the water nutrient free, but thats part of the game. Fish get fed with food from the LFS or home made blender mush or from a fuge. To say that some reefers "happily starve certain fish to death" is rediculous and, IMO, uninformed. I have yet to see anyone happily starve a fish they paid money for. I also have yet to see anyone have intention to kill animals. Do fish die? Yes obviously, usually do to lack of knowledge about that particular critter but sometimes they just die. Do reefers intentionaly kill them for the benefit of coral? Give me a break. Our systems, what ever type it may be , are about life, and the balance in an incredibaly complex, closed system. I'm not trying to drag you across the coals but I do feel that your statements are a bit out of line. Please know that there are always posts asking for help with a sick fish, and usually there is coral in the tank also. Coral is also alive.

R

[Geoff]

what is the difference between running a refugium and just running your skimmer less efficiently or not at all(not counting using algae as a true foodstuff for a specific critter)?

G~