Again!

Viv · 08-21-2006, 11:05 AM

And hopefully for the last time! Felt I had increased DOM in my water column that just wasn't being dealt with, with the skimmer I had - so I went and got a bigger one. Of course, the sump I have really is an old trickle filter and can't really do the job, ssssoooooooo-here comes the new sump. This time its gonna be for 96 gal(as opposed to the 13gal the current trickle holds)-since I'm going this route, I'm changing the Little Giant return pump for a Dart, which should push about 2400g. While I'm at it, it's only another $10.00 for the float valve for top off, so ok, add that too....gonna have to empty the tank and redo the plumbing, but hey, I know how to do that! Please tell me if you can think of anything else that might involve plumbing, pipes, pumps etc. that I may be missing-I'd really like to get this end of things done, once and for all, the correct way!

Geoff · 08-21-2006, 12:25 PM

what kind of skimmer are you going to use? i would not use a Dart as a return. i do not think you need that much flow through a sump. you are asking for micro-bubbles.

i think using a Dart for a CLS is a good idea, but not for a return.

G~

Viv · 08-21-2006, 01:41 PM

Geoff, this is that PM Bullet xl2 ...I have the iwaki 70R (T)-115 pump for the skimmer. Pump for the skimmer should handle max flow 1536 with max head 31.8. The maker of my new sump felt a dart would be good as the new sump will hold 96 gal...he felt I'd probably get 2000gph pushed through the return (which is only a 1" bulk head). The intake on the Dart is 2" with the output 1.5 so I'd have to plumb down to 1".

Viv · 08-21-2006, 10:50 PM

What is your thought...

Geoff · 08-22-2006, 10:44 AM

that is absolutley horrible choice for that application.

you should never run a pump with inlet tubes smaller than the inlet for the pump. it will starve the pump and cause it to burn out prematurely. also that pump is a non-pressure pump. any kind of restrictions you put on it will seriously limit the amount of flow it can provide. it would be better to spend the money on a pump that has 1" inlets and outlets that will push the water you want. it makes more sense to use a Mag 24 or Mag 36. they may be loud, but you will be using the pump properly. there are other pumps out there. even ones made by Sequence that would be a better choice.

that skimmer is prolly only processing about 1000gph. i do not see any reason to go above this in total flow through the sump. what size is your overflow drain. if it is smaller than 1.5" than i would not go much above 1000gph through the sump anyway.

if you want more flow, get yourself a Tunze.

G~

Viv · 08-22-2006, 01:36 PM

Got the tunze. It isn't the flow, its the turn-over. I believe its only at 3X. I meant I would have to plumb down to 1" after the pump, not before it, and yeah, the overflow drain only fits a 1" bulkhead. That's why all the plumbing is 1". I was trying to increase the turn-over. There would be no restrictions on the pump, not being utilized for anything else, but I get the impression this is not the way to do this, nor do you like the Dart, and I'm not sure I understand why.

Geoff · 08-22-2006, 01:48 PM

i like the dart. i just do not think that it would be a wise choice for this application.

the problem i am seeing is that it will be very difficult to figure out how much flow the Dart will be giving you. i can easily see it outrunning your overflow and and draining your tank. you can not put anymore flow through a sump than what your overflow can handle. your bottleneck is the overflow not the skimmer or the return pump. if it is a 1" bulkhead than it is really only rated to about 600gph!! a Dart will outrun that in its sleep.

whatever flow a Tunze is doing is considered turnover rate of the aquarium. the only way to get more turnover through a sump is by adding another drain to the tank.

am i making sense? am i missing something you are trying to tell me?

G~

Viv · 08-22-2006, 02:31 PM

OH! I didn't know that the 1" would only allow 600gph! Crud!! There are two overflows, should I put in a third? The tank is old, I think I'd have to find some other way to get another drain than drilling. (I'm afraid the glass would shatter). I think I need to increase the turnover. Now I'm completely lost and don't know what the heck to do. How will I have enough drain water to supply the skimmer? My brain is fried-I'm lost here!!

Geoff · 08-22-2006, 10:35 PM

list all of the holes you have in the tank and their locations.

ok, good, now we are on the same page.

sorry i was not explaining it well enough from the beginning.

G~

Viv · 08-23-2006, 11:37 AM

My fault, why should you remember my tank...ok, this is a 359g, there are two overflows one left, one right. Each has a drain 1", the plumbing is !" pvc, that currently drops into an old wet/dry (without the bioballs). Its just used for circulation of water. If you remember I got a new PM skimmer, a Bullet XL2, with and Iwaki 70RLT. I tried to keep the pump off the floor (due to dampness) and rigged up a system that was not going to work. Your original suggestion was to drill the acrylic old wet/dry sump so that the pump and skimmer would have direct access to the sump. Well, after going through all this I figured I might as well truly get a sump. So, I am having a 96g sump made up by AE Tech. It will have bulk heads for both the pump and the skimmer, baffles and drains from tank (2) and bulkhead for the return pump. The return pump I currently have is a Little Giant. The Little Giant is giving me a return of about 1080 at 6ft. The tank drain has a standpipe which will fill the overflow box when in, but when removed will drain the overflow box completely. The thought given to me was that I could go higher on the return pump, to the Dart. The Dart has a 2" inlet and 1.5 outlet. My plumbing, due to the bulkhead and the current Little Giant is all 1". I could plumb down from the 1.5" outlet on the Dart to fit the 1" plumbing throughout the system, or change all the plumbing up to the bulkhead. I don't think I can drill the tank, its old and I'm afraid the glass would break or splinter (and then I'd be with no tank at all). It was told to me that the Dart would probably give me about 2000gph increasing the turnover. Is the Dart still a bad idea? I told him to go ahead, so at this point I may be stuck with it...I do appreciate your help in all this!

Geoff · 08-23-2006, 01:13 PM

how is all of the extra water going to get into the sump? even with 2 1" drains that only gets you about 1200gph. you are not that much below that with your little giant. that size tank should have had 2 1.5" drains on it at least.

you are wanting more flow through the sump, in order to get more processing done with the skimmer, correct?

have you thought about running the skimmer directly off of one of the drains? it could be kinda risky, i can get into that later, but that way you are processing as much direct tank water as possible. since the pump will be pulling directly from the drain you are not limited by gravity for the flow through a 1" pipe. you will be getting the maximum amount of flow through the sump as possible. not sure how much more it would pull, but the potential is pretty high. this will also allow the Dart to at least be running a little less restricted. i still think that is way to much pump for a return.

the problem with this setup is getting the water into the overflow with the skimmer pump connected to it. could you measure the top of the overflow box? this distance determins how much water can actually enter the overflow box. i may need to be modified to let more water in. this is where the risk comes in. it is theoretically possible for the dart to stop working and the skimmer pump to keep working. this would cause a flood. it will also be necessary to get the water level in the skimmer drain high enough to let large amounts of water into the skimmer, but not so much that if all of the power were to go out the sump would again overflow.

this will be tricky, i can not think of another way. it really is not recommended to pump water out of a tank than pump it back in. you do have some gravity feed to act as an equalizer.

G~

Viv · 08-24-2006, 03:17 PM

Thank you sooooo much! I really had no understanding of this, which I guess you probably saw from the first. Thanks for hanging in this and explaining it to me, it really makes much more sense now. I guess I'm gonna stick with the Little Giant, as now I can see at most I'd be putting on the Dart and probably just burning it out! I can't see running the skimmer, or having the pump pull the skimmer water as it just will lead to a SNAFU sort of thing again, but at least now I understand why. I think I'll probably just run the return with the Little Giant and the skimmer on the Iwaki....unless I can figure a way for another drain like you original mentioned...now, if I won the lottery, I wouldn't worry about cracking the glass-then it'd be a smooth go!! Thanks again!!!