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Old 01-25-2012, 09:46 AM   #16
ilovefishtanks
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Cool! They don't need to be invert safe, as long as they won't peck too much at the corals, it will be fine. Also, for my Red Sea Max 250, I've been trying to think of something to replace the powder blue. Here are a few ideas:

--tilefish
--squarespot anthias
--small moray
--lionfish
--some kind of basslet
--firefish
--Cool wrasse
--"reef safe" butterfly (deepwater) or angel
--Foxface

Any suggestions?
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Old 01-25-2012, 02:42 PM   #17
ilovefishtanks
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Sorry guys, new update.

I may be keeping the tang for another little while, as the other tank, and the quarentine are not set up yet. Will it be fine for another 6ish weeks?

Thanks,

~Ben
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:51 PM   #18
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Garlic is an old wives tale, no effect on Marine ich. You need to decide to take one of two choices. Live with ich in the tank and manage it via the fish's natural ability to build partial immunity (good food, low stress, etc) or keeping the organism out of the tank via treatment, fallow, and long QT/preemptive treatment. But if you pull a fish out of a tank, cure him with hypo/copper/tank transfer... then put him right back in the tank full of ich you are just spinning your wheels.

Here is a good place to start learning about ich
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...ths-facts.html

I think that chuck's addiction has a pretty good run down as well.

Don't bother with FW dips for ich, and for the love of Neptune don't dip it in bleach water.
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:03 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howsboutafiver View Post
Ok boys they say bleach is bad. I read that if done properly will kill bacteria only. Kinda like farmers killing weeds with nitrogen. Seems like playing with fire but it dosed properly is very effective. Ich can get in gills and kill fish. Also copper pennies canadian if ya got them will work in fish only tank . American pennies dont have enough copper in then. A canadian nickel is cool to look at has a beaver on it. Wont work for ich tho. Boooooya. Oh ya blue. Tangs are ich magnets.
Marine ich is not a bacteria. Sufficient chlorine to kill ich will burn gills much worse than ammonia burns. Ich very rarely kills unless there are other factors at work. Either Canadian or US pennies have plenty of copper in them to kill ich, but will kill coral and inverts. If you want to treat with copper, use a measured product, don't just throw pennies in there. The therapeutic range of copper is limited, so you can under or over use it. You don't just want a random amount of copper added to a tank
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Old 01-31-2012, 09:05 AM   #20
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+1 to jenglish. Pulling any fish out of the DT to treat for ich, then putting back into the DT where the ich is still present is a waste of time, money, and only further stresses the fish, making it even more susceptible to ich. You need to find out why it succumbed to ich in the first place. Was it sick to begin with? Is there a stress trigger, or multiple stress triggers? Fix the problem as opposed to just treating symptoms.
As for the garlic....here is where the "theory" comes from. Stress is known as an immunosuppressor, meaning stressed out organisms are more likely to succumb to illnesses, whether bacterial, viral, or parasitic. Their immune systems can't fight it off as effectively as when they are stress free. Garlic is a proven immunobooster...in humans. I am not aware of any research or studies that show it works as an immunobooster in marine fish. That isn't to say it doesn't work or that there aren't studies out there...I am just not aware of them. It very well may work that way, but not sure on any scientific proof. Individual experience doesn't count as scientific proof. Scientific proof requires isolating variables and having the results repeatable.
As for the bleach and copper coins....just say "no". Bleach is likely to cause more damage than good. There are some articles out there regarding use of bleach, but they are an extreme option and there are better ways for most hobbyists to resolve ich issues. Coins aren't pure copper so you are adding all kinds of other heavy metals and contaminates to the tank, which is never a good idea.
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:20 AM   #21
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OK, thanks for the help!

The tang will be going into Q, and then into another tank, in which it will be the first fish, and by that point, the ich would have no host, and would not re-infect the fish. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

~Ben
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:26 AM   #22
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ich can survive for up to 10 weeks without a fish to host. Some strains can go many months but those are very rare...most are gone within 8 weeks, but if you are waiting 8 weeks, what is another two to be safe and cover 99.9% of all known strains.

I'd be hesitant in making a tang the first fish added to a new tank. They tend to be among the more aggressive fish we keep so are usually recommended to be added last, or very near the end, depending on the other occupants. I can speak from experience that adding fish after a tang can be a pain.
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Old 01-31-2012, 05:41 PM   #23
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Herbal Remedies (i.e. Garlic)
Using herbal remedies to combat Cryptocaryon irritans or ich has become more commonplace over the past few years with marine aquarists. Garlic, in particular, has become popular. The foods are soaked daily with garlic prior to feeding the fish for several weeks to combat ich. Unfortunately, evidence to support garlic's effectiveness or lack thereof, for the treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans is anecdotal (Bartelme, 2003a. Cortes-Jorge, 2000). It seems to work in some cases, especially with light infections, and not in others. However there is some evidence to support garlic as a treatment for some other types of parasites.

An extract of garlic, allium satiyum, has been reported to eradicate trichodinids (Madsen et al. 2000). It has also been demonstrated that garlic extract kills Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, at the theront stage within 15 hours. Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is the freshwater parasite that causes an infection that is often referred to as ick.

The extract was prepared by crushing fresh garlic cloves. The juice was then added to the aquarium at a dosage of 62.5 mg/L to kill theronts.If more than 50% of the theronts died the concentration was recorded as effective ((Buchmann, et al., 2002). A dosage of 570 mg/L was required to kill 100% of the tomocyst stage of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. Preliminary tests using allium satiyum indicated that it has no effect on trophonts in the skin of fish (Buchmann et al., 2002). The amount of active compounds varies widely among the different varieties of garlic and the use of garlic, by adding it to the water, may prove to be unrealistic ((Buchmann, et al., 2002).

The mechanism of host location for Cryptocaryon irritans is unknown (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). It has been suggested that garlic, when administered orally to fish, may interfere with the parasites ability to parasitize by camouflaging the chemical attraction of fish (Cortes-Jorge, 2000). Chemical attraction requires further investigation (Colorni & Burgess, 1997).

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/2/mini

also http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:56 PM   #24
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Cool!
We will be Quarantining the fish for at least 8 weeks, restarting the treatment if it shows signs of disease. Will it be fine in a 20 gal long? It's all we have.

Oh, and the tank will be a predator/aggressive fish tank. Any placid fish will be added before the tang. So I hope all goes well!

Thanks,

~Ben

Ps. I think the fish had ich when we bought it, and the tang will have to be moved anyways, so I don't see any harm in quarantining it.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:52 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by ilovefishtanks View Post
Cool!
We will be Quarantining the fish for at least 8 weeks, restarting the treatment if it shows signs of disease. Will it be fine in a 20 gal long? It's all we have.

Oh, and the tank will be a predator/aggressive fish tank. Any placid fish will be added before the tang. So I hope all goes well!

Thanks,

~Ben

Ps. I think the fish had ich when we bought it, and the tang will have to be moved anyways, so I don't see any harm in quarantining it.
Are there other fish in the same tank, or is the tang the only fish? No matter how long you have the tang out of the tank, if there are other fish in there, the ich will still be there. Even if the fish don't show signs, they may be infected and will act as a carrier for ich.

As for a 20g long for 8 weeks with a tang...that may be tough. They like and need their swimming space, even for QT. Will depend on the size, etc. Be sure to put some PVC or something in there for it to hide in. It may help. Also watch parameters very closely. a Tang in a 20g will create quite the bioload so parameters may be hard to control.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:55 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by jenglish View Post
Herbal Remedies (i.e. Garlic)
Using herbal remedies to combat Cryptocaryon irritans or ich has become more commonplace over the past few years with marine aquarists. Garlic, in particular, has become popular. The foods are soaked daily with garlic prior to feeding the fish for several weeks to combat ich. Unfortunately, evidence to support garlic's effectiveness or lack thereof, for the treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans is anecdotal (Bartelme, 2003a. Cortes-Jorge, 2000). It seems to work in some cases, especially with light infections, and not in others. However there is some evidence to support garlic as a treatment for some other types of parasites.

An extract of garlic, allium satiyum, has been reported to eradicate trichodinids (Madsen et al. 2000). It has also been demonstrated that garlic extract kills Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, at the theront stage within 15 hours. Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is the freshwater parasite that causes an infection that is often referred to as ick.

The extract was prepared by crushing fresh garlic cloves. The juice was then added to the aquarium at a dosage of 62.5 mg/L to kill theronts.If more than 50% of the theronts died the concentration was recorded as effective ((Buchmann, et al., 2002). A dosage of 570 mg/L was required to kill 100% of the tomocyst stage of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. Preliminary tests using allium satiyum indicated that it has no effect on trophonts in the skin of fish (Buchmann et al., 2002). The amount of active compounds varies widely among the different varieties of garlic and the use of garlic, by adding it to the water, may prove to be unrealistic ((Buchmann, et al., 2002).

The mechanism of host location for Cryptocaryon irritans is unknown (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). It has been suggested that garlic, when administered orally to fish, may interfere with the parasites ability to parasitize by camouflaging the chemical attraction of fish (Cortes-Jorge, 2000). Chemical attraction requires further investigation (Colorni & Burgess, 1997).

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/2/mini

also http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php
Thanks for posting this, jenglish. Two notes I wanted to point out for anyone who skims this instead of reading it.

1. It looks like a lot of the research is based on fresh water ich, not marine ich. They have different traits so we can't assume they are going to react the same way.
2. Even if we do make that assumption, they said that anything over 50% is considered effective....ich can reproduce so fast that unless treatment is continual, it will simply replenish its numbers very quickly. Therefore, I'd still consider it a "band-aid" fix. I agree it is better to solve the stressor and that should solve the problem.
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:12 PM   #27
ilovefishtanks
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As for a 20g long for 8 weeks with a tang...that may be tough. They like and need their swimming space, even for QT. Will depend on the size, etc. Be sure to put some PVC or something in there for it to hide in. It may help. Also watch parameters very closely. a Tang in a 20g will create quite the bioload so parameters may be hard to control.[/QUOTE]

There will be lots of PVC in the QT tank. As for the water quality, I have heard you cannot use biological filtration, as the beneficial bacteria will die. Also, I have heard you cannot use chemical filtration, as it will remove the medicines. Mind you, the DIY mechanical filter is about 16" long, and 9" wide. We will also change the water twice a week.

Will this be OK,

~Ben
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:20 PM   #28
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You can still have a bio filter with copper or hyposalinity. IN fact you pretty much have to.

You may consider buying a plastic rubbermaid tub.... you can get one much larger than a 20L for a few bucks. it's something to consider for a QT
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:35 PM   #29
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It will not be 20l, but 20 gallons, which is close to 100l.


~Ben
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Old 02-02-2012, 10:21 AM   #30
ilovefishtanks
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OK, so I will have some cash $$ when I sell the powder blue. When I was at the NSLFS (Not-so-Local-Fish-Store) I saw this really awesome ribbon eel. They almost always have a few juveniles in, so I asked if I could see them feeding. Sure enough, they ate. I'm hoping to get my hands on one soon! Any advice?

Thanks,

~Ben
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