Kordon Ich Attack - FNG

[Mr.Peanut]

If you ask Lee Birch you may change your opinion. I believe he claims to have been Ich free since the early 70's.

My system also showed ich in the begining, all of the fish were removed and the tank was left fallow for 8 weeks. Cryptocayron cannot survive without a host for that long. If you do not agree with that fact, you may want do some research on Dr. Peter Burgess and his studies and a study done in 1992 by Colorni.

The fact that your system has Ich and that your fish sometimes display Ich is easily fixed. Although it is easier to believe that Ich exists in every system, it's just not true.

And FWIW, my fish NEVER display fin rot or white spots. I have done a fair amount of reading about Ich and I understand it's life cycle. There are certain steps that can be taken to disrupt the life cycle and kill it. Once a system is free of marine ich, it simply cannot reoccur unless it is physically reintroduced.

[Mr.Peanut]

Originally Posted by Atv023

You are entitled to your opinion and I respect it, but ask WWM and Dr. Fenner specifically. You might have a different opinion than you once thought true.

I did some quick research on WWM and Bob Fenner. This paragraph was taken from the WWM website, the last sentence says it best........

"This process, which takes anywhere from 4 to 28 days, results in a new generation of free swimming protozoans called theronts. The theronts must then locate and inhabit a suitable host to complete their life cycle within several hours, or they will die. It is during this free swimming phase that the Cryptocaryon parasite is most vulnerable, and this is the part of the life cycle when Marine Ich can be eradicated with a relatively high degree of success."

I do not mean this as a smart *****......but as a I can help you if you want to rid your system of this parasite.

[Atv023]

If you could post the information from Birch you are referencing I would appreciate it. I tried to do a google search of him and a lot of stuff came back.

"the trophont can persist "dormant" in the aquarium" -He also says this - "Let me remind you again that I'm not a veterinarian. I'm just passing on to you the best of what I've read." and, "In marine aquaria, I'm told, Cryptocaryon (which means "hidden spore") can remain infective for up to thirty days"- The Skeptical Aquarist, Protozoan Parasites, Dr. Peter Burgess

I read what I could of Dr. Peter Burgess.

Anyways, back to my point, if you bought anything from the LFS, it has Ich parasites, and my fish do great even with Ich and other parasites present in the water column. Guess I didnt need chemicals to rid my problems. The only symptoms I see on my fish are a small discolloration in one area, then 24 hours later its gone. However, only if I am behind on water changes. If I'm good with maintenance, nothing is ever noticed.

Another interesting fact is that the Ich parasite came from the ocean naturally. It isn't man made.

[Atv023]

The statement I was trying to make is that Ich is a naturally occuring parasite. Its not some crazy parasite that grew to specifically attack LFS fish and home aquariasts. It is found naturally in the environment, so it shouldn't be worried about as much as people do.

If you don't take care of your tank, then maybe you should worry about it. If your tank and fish are healthy, they can fight it off as they do in the wild. My setup has been good enough so far to combat most problems. I have an aiptasia problem though. The Percula Clown and the Dottyback are the only ones affected by the parasites. My Snowflake Eel and Blenny aren't affected because their gill structures are different than the clown and dotty.

I should also say, I'm not sure whether the white spots my fish somtimes develop is even Ich, but thats the closest thing to compare it too. The fin rot I'm sure I see every once and a great while. Never last more than 24 hours though, I'm usually on top of my stuff.

Just my 0.02 cents though

[Mr.Peanut]

Originally Posted by Atv023

Lol, yea you are a smart*** and nothing your posting is relevant to whether Ich is a naturally occuring parasite in a marine environment.

Funny. I was just trying to help you that's all. Some more reading shows that Bob Fenner is not a DR.

As a matter of fact, the last post I made states that Ich can be ERADICATED from a system. Also, that info was taken from YOUR source which you say claims ich is always present. It isn't.

If you want to read about Lee Birch you can google his name. You'll find plenty to read.

You stated your fish diplayed fin rot, you brought it up...not me.

Good luck.

[Atv023]

Haha, no need to get pissy. I looked up the guy, but most of what I could find was about a wood builder. Same guy?

I appreciate your offer for help however it is my belief that your motive was more of a cynical one. If it truly wasn't, as I said, I appreciate it.

Google this article. "Cryptocaryon irritans Brown 1951, the cause of ‘white spot disease’ in marine fish: an update" Can you highlight and right-click copy on this site? I tried and wasn't able too.

Its always found in the wild, just in low numbers, it proliferates under certain conditions in confined aquarium environments.


Instead of adding chemicals to my system, I don't have to do anything. Its not worth the risk to the health of the plethora of different species cointained in my aquarium. For me anyways. Everything in my tank is very healthy, I would like it to stay that way.

You know the funny thing is they say you see the little pin size dots on the fish, I have never seen those. Only the seldom symptoms I already descirbed. For my setup anyways, it is all about the water quality. If I could change a little water everyday I would, but thats too much effort and resources. If someone built a system that automatically mixed the salt and water for you, got the temperature even with the tank, then emptied some water and refilled with the premix, that would be dope.

[jenglish]

Originally Posted by Atv023

If you could post the information from Birch you are referencing I would appreciate it. I tried to do a google search of him and a lot of stuff came back.



Another interesting fact is that the Ich parasite came from the ocean naturally. It isn't man made.

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...ths-facts.html

Crypto is naturally occurring but in a big ocean it is manageable but in a small system it can reach much higher concentrations than it does in the wild.

[aquawolf]

Let's keep the discussion civil here. There is no need for name calling or being disrespectful whatsoever.

In order to explain things a little more clearly, let's start with a simple question.

If I have a tank set up that has no fish in it whatsoever will the tank have ich?

[Mr.Peanut]

Originally Posted by aquawolf

Let's keep the discussion civil here. There is no need for name calling or being disrespectful whatsoever.

In order to explain things a little more clearly, let's start with a simple question.

If I have a tank set up that has no fish in it whatsoever will the tank have ich?

It could. It is possible to bring ich in on anything, rock, inverts and even water brought in. I am not debating that. But, if left fallow for 72 days, any ich will be gone.

Crypto is an obligate parasite. It needs a host.

And my offer to help was genuine.

[aquawolf]

I know your history with ich very well Mr. Peanut and know that you were trying to help.

You also got things going in the direction that I was thinking of with that reply. If I have a tank set up with no fish in it, any Ich that may be brought into the system will only survive for 6-8 weeks at the most. So, if I was to quarantine any new additions for the 72 day period the chances of introducing ich to the display would be minimal.

[jenglish]

FWIW the 72 days is the record and 60 days is considered the 99.9%, I think thats like 4 SD of so from the mean.

[aquawolf]

So, at 60 days without fish all of the stages of life will have perished within the system to a 99.9% guarantee. That is definitely good enough for me.

Now the question becomes if you are going to quarantine the first fish to add to this system, would you do it in a medicated tank or run it in hyposalinity just to be on the safe side?

This probably could have been a good Think Tank topic as well.

[Mr.Peanut]

Originally Posted by aquawolf

So, at 60 days without fish all of the stages of life will have perished within the system to a 99.9% guarantee. That is definitely good enough for me.

Now the question becomes if you are going to quarantine the first fish to add to this system, would you do it in a medicated tank or run it in hyposalinity just to be on the safe side?

This probably could have been a good Think Tank topic as well.

I think you need to treat on a fish by fish basis. How I Q/T depends on where the fish comes from.

I have a Royal Gramma in Q/T that had visable Ich when I brought him home. I have treated this fish chemically and with hypo. I am ready to add him to the display now.

99.9% guarantee is good enough for me too.

[jenglish]

I don't remember the exact temp that the 72 days was observed at but it was cooler than reef tanks are typically kept.

I run an observational QT and only treat if I see a sign of an infection

[aquawolf]

I was thinking the same thing, that being that treating a fish that shows no outward signs of disease during the quarantine process may just cause it more stress or possibly weaken its immune system as well.