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Old 04-19-2006, 09:17 AM   #1
skeety
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Polyp Expansion...explained?


Okay guys...

Can anyone out there help me unravel (some, at least) the mystery behind PE? Is this another unknown at this point? anecdotal? Or do we know the reason?

I'm asking cause my tank's doing great...corals are bright, colorful, and growing pretty fast...but I don't really see very good PE from most of my corals.

My coral beauty ocassionally nips...but usually is more interested in my x-mas tree worms than in the SPS polyps.

My cleaner shrimp, on the other hand....well...he's a WHOLE different story. He's a polyp pickin' pain in the butt. He's constantly pickin' at this and that.

Is the answer as simple as aggitation? Is my Cleaner teaching the SPS to stay shut during the day?

Or is there more to it.

REALLY like my cleaner (other than this)...but if he's the reason, I have other tanks I can put him in. But just want to know before going through the trouble.
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Old 04-19-2006, 10:06 AM   #2
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Factors include (and probably aren't limited to):

*respiratory needs Polyps have lots of surface area for gas exchange. This doesn't work unless they are expanded.

*energy needs Polyps are the main means of prey capture. Polyps often contain zoox as well. If they need more energy, polyps can contribute to photosynthetic production and capture prey.

*agitation Fish nippping, excessive water flow, other physical disturbance can cause them to retract defensively. Agitation can also be related to water chemistry or amount of light. Generally, withdrawn polyps can indicate stress in general.

There aren't many unhappy corals that expand their polyps IME, but just because a coral isn't expanding doesn't mean they're stressed. I've found that corals receiving "too much" light or prolonged intense light rarely show much expansion. YMMV...
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Old 04-19-2006, 12:26 PM   #3
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okay...so with an open top, open sump, the return pump dedicated to surface aggitation, and a MR2 skimmer adding TONS of air...I'm hoping to exclude respiratory needs. As I'm pretty sure the water is mixing with the air enough.

As for energy needs...am I to believe if the corals starving, I'd see greater PE regardless of other conditions? On the opposite end...if I'm getting good growth..can I assume that the SPS's energy needs are being met?

If so, that leaves aggitation. with the exception of one of my corals (which I plan to move), I don't think I have too much flow. If anything, I might be just a tad shy of ideal. (working on that too).

Now the light thing has me wondering.

I currently have 2x250 HQI 10K MH bulbs on from 11 to 4 (5 hours).
and my 2x110 VHO actinics are on from 11 to 9 (10 hours). The whole fixture is about 6" off the surface (plus another 4" difference in the fixture).

I have a 72 gal bow that's 48" L x 20" H x 18-24" deep.

Should I maybe decrease my MH light cycle?

also...I have a question regarding your one statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
There aren't many unhappy corals that expand their polyps IME, but just because a coral isn't expanding doesn't mean they're stressed.
This confuses me...cause some of the reasons you gave for PE would lead me to believe the coral is unhappy. i.e. Energy needs and respiration. If it's not getting enough energy, you'd see PE, but the coral would be unhappy. Same with respiration, right?

We all seem to strive for really good PE...but that seems contradictory to the corals health given that info.

I really do appreciate your input...so I hope you don't mistake me for being argumentative....I'm just trying to understand.
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Old 04-19-2006, 02:00 PM   #4
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Let me start by saying that the "factors" I gave are pretty much gathered from things I have read, been told, and general scientific "common-sense". If an organism is sessile and requires its environment to bring it food and get rid of waste, maximizing the surface area will facilitate this (expand the polyps). But this also requires energy, so if it's not needed, it doesn't make sense for the organism to do it. That can either be because it doesn't need to or because it can't really invest the energy into doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeety
okay...so with an open top, open sump, the return pump dedicated to surface aggitation, and a MR2 skimmer adding TONS of air...I'm hoping to exclude respiratory needs. As I'm pretty sure the water is mixing with the air enough.
I think the respiratory need would come more into play with oxygen deficiency. Although it might also play a factor if the coral is getting too much O2 (overphotosynthesizing) - and that would contradict the "no PE with too much light" response. As you can see, there are many interrelated factors here. Keep in mind that most Acropora exhibit little or no polyp extension in the wild during the photosynthetic period. I have no idea why, but it's obviously not a clear sign of the colony's state of well being. It might well be aggression in the wild and perhaps it's as simple as them not being able to "unlearn" that behavior in captivity. But I've seen frags off the same colony expand in one tank and not in another. Agression was not a factor, so that means it's not the only factor.

Quote:
As for energy needs...am I to believe if the corals starving, I'd see greater PE regardless of other conditions? On the opposite end...if I'm getting good growth..can I assume that the SPS's energy needs are being met?
Hard to say because the factors are interrelated. A "starving" coral may not have the energy to devote to PE. But they also can't feed very well with polyps in. Perhaps "starving" is a poor term.

Quote:
Should I maybe decrease my MH light cycle?
I wouldn't. I think your lighting is fine. How are you acclimating them? Also, how old are these corals and how old is your tank?

Quote:
This confuses me...cause some of the reasons you gave for PE would lead me to believe the coral is unhappy. i.e. Energy needs and respiration. If it's not getting enough energy, you'd see PE, but the coral would be unhappy. Same with respiration, right?
Well, as you can see, it's not as easy as it would be if there was a single variable. There are lots of SPS keepers who lament about the lack of polyp extension. I have a couple Acros in my tank that just never expand during the day regardless of conditions. I think that as long as there is extension at some point in a 24-hour cycle, the coral is doing well. After all, they poop out of the same hole they eat through. If they aren't expanding, their metabolism may well be shut(ting) down. The only time I worry is when I see no PE day or night.

Quote:
We all seem to strive for really good PE...but that seems contradictory to the corals health given that info.
In what way? If the coral is growing well, expanding the polyps places little demand on the colony. That this might increase the amount of prey that is captured or increase photosynthetic products is a good thing. More raw materials to be had. Lack of extension may also be a temporary thing until the coral acclimates to its conditions. In all, we need to learn that it's not good or bad, but rather makes the coral look "better" to us. Does that matter? You're the judge. But to rephrase my earlier statement. If polyps are expanded, it's probably not a sign of stress. I've yet to loose a coral that exhibited daytime PE. However, if the polyps are not expanded it may or may not be a sign of stress.

Quote:
I really do appreciate your input...so I hope you don't mistake me for being argumentative....I'm just trying to understand.
Not at all. I come across as being argumentative all the time. I like to think of it as "stimulating the conversation."
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Last edited by Graham; 04-19-2006 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 04-21-2006, 02:11 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graham
I wouldn't. I think your lighting is fine. How are you acclimating them? Also, how old are these corals and how old is your tank?
I aclimate by putting them in an egg-crate tray/stand I made. I place the stand in the substrate...then place the frags in/on the eggcrate. I leave them there for a week.

Then...corals that aren't going much higher than the middle...I just permanently place. If they're going higher than the middle of the tank...I have another egg-crate tray/stand that hangs over the side and sits at about the middle. I move them up to the middle...and leave them there for a week (usually, a hermit or snail will occasionally knock them back down...which is bad...but not sure how else to do this). For that 2nd week, I keep a close eye on the one on the middle tray...and put them back as soon as I see they've been knocked down.

After another week there...I permanently place the remaining frags.

I don't adjust my photo-cycle in any way.

is that (other than the falling down part) sufficient?

my tank was set up about 14 months ago. Just started adding SPS's about 8 months ago. Funny you ask though...the corals that I DO see some decent PE from are the ones that have been in my tank the longest (8 months ago). My orange birdsnest, and my green slimer. The only two to exibit constant PE. Not super extended...but out a bit.

So maybe all my other corals (most of which were added 3 or 4 months ago)..will start showing PE after a while. hahaha

either way...truly appreciate your explainations, and feel I've learned a lot.

Learned enough to stop worrying about PE! hahaha

as long as I'm seeing decent growth, I'll consider my corals happy.
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