need sps help

[collin]

Ok i am restarting my tank and want to do mostly sps...i have enough light and flow but i need to know the chemestry aspect of the sps game so can any one help me understand waht i need to kow or do to keep good healthy sps corals?

thanks

collin

[tdwyatt]

Originally Posted by collin

Ok i am restarting my tank and want to do mostly sps...i have enough light and flow but i need to know the chemestry aspect of the sps game so can any one help me understand waht i need to kow or do to keep good healthy sps corals?

thanks

collin

Are you speaking about the nitrogen chemistry? The issues with organic carbon chemistry? The biochemistry of photosynthesis and how it ties to calcification? Calcification and skeletalization chemisty? Abiotic Calcification? Calcium supersaturation in seawater? Inorganic carbon (alkalinity and pCO2) chemistry in seawater? Phosphate acquisition? pH issues? Balance of conservative elements issuese? Make-up of ASW?

All these relate to keeping stony corals healthy in captive artificial seawater biotopes, and this does not EVEN get into the biochemistry of their defenses or sensing-of-self issues in seawater; could you be a bit more specific?

There are many threads we have up for most of these topics...

[three90s&125sump]

:Lol:... Owch... I think we should start simple... Ca++, Alk and Mg++... (That will knock out a lot of those) After that work into PO4 and calcification (that will knock out a few more). Then move onto carbon compounds...

[FutureDoc]

Oh, come on, SPS chem does not need to be that specific.

The trick is that there can me no ammonia or nitirite. Nitrate should be 0, as well as phosphate, but small amounts of these "pollutants" will not always kill SPS, but it can stress the colonies and cause them to loose color. Keep temperature as steady as possible.

Other than that, the best approach is to keep stable parameters. there should not be a large swing in pH. Keep it between 7.8 on the low side (lights off) and 8.2 on the high side (lights on) however it is best to keep the pH as stable as possible. For alkalinity, keeping a stead 7 to 8 reading (for most basic alk test) is best... but once again, the best option is to keep things stable. As for calcium (Ca), I say to shoot for anywhere between 400 and 500. Mg is important for Ca and such but I find is to be less relevant overall, doing frequent water changes normally does the trick.

Still, what was mentioned above is the best/complex/scientific approach, but keeping the parameters simple and following the basics can reward success.

Stability Promotes Success (SPS)

[scoop]

Collin, the key in any tank, particularly sps, is to go slow. Also, let us know about your set up, what type of lighting, skimmer, ect. Get the live rock (and sand, if you are doing sand) in the tank and start the cycle. It will take 1 to 2 months for the first cycle to happen, then you can add some inhabitants. It really takes at least 6 months (I think closer to a year) to completely stabilize the tank. If you have the right equipment for sps there are some easy ones you ma be able to start adding at around 3 or 4 months. Before you get too deep in to the chemistry, you can start out on the easy stuff and take your time. Then just keep asking questions!

[ckusnierek]

Stability is key:
Temp, Salinity,PH, Ca,Alk,Mag. Keep those in check and you will be fine.

Also keep in mind that your comming off a crash. Depending on the severity/fish loss and how long things sat before you cleaned it up your rock may be filled with a bunch of junk and may need a cooking...

[collin]

ok let me restate my question ive had my tank for over a year and it crashed...i have a nova extreme 8x54 t5(not individual reflectors) and a 2" sand bed....2 hydor 4s and a aquaclear 80..emperor 400 filter and idk the name of my skimmer but its a hob and my lfs recomended it as well as people in my group.....ive tryed sps befor and something went wrong but idk waht happened so im restarting and ima try to do it better this time so i just need help with what i need to do to keep colorful and healthy sps corals...
thanks
collin

[Fat Tony]

The key part is keeping the alkalinty, calcium and magnesium levels steady.

As posted in the PMs we've talked through over the last few nights. I like to keep my levels around

Alk : 9-9.5 dkH as I have found that it seems to work best for me with the sandbed. I have tried everythign from 7-10 and 9-9.5 seems to work the best with my particular tank.

Calcium : 400-440
Magnesium : 1250-1350

Phosphate tests are just about worthless as you will know from looking at your tank that you have a phosphate issue (PO4) from algae and cyano (which you currently have)

pH can range from 7.8-8.4 (but not that large a swing daily, generally want it to be within .2-.3 pH values from just before lights on till just after lights out.

Amm, Nitrites and Nitrates should be 0, but with just a little (less than 10) nitrates, you should be ok.


The first thing I can recommend to you is to get your phosphates under control. That means waterchanges and probably running some form of PO4 media (as discussed in PM).

What do you feed your fish? You may need to change your feeding habits and your food type to try to reduce the input of PO4 into the tank.

There are several things you need to acquire prior to adding a single coral to the tank... you need to get your own test kits and get into a habit of testing your water instead of random daily dosing. It isn't hard to keep SPS or a tank, you just have to develop some good husbandry habits and learn how to maintain your tank.

[collin]

ok well ill go get a test kit and what does cooking mean

[Fat Tony]

do a search on here for cooking rock... you will come up with quite a few threads on the subject... but the basics of it are...

put your rock in a dark container with saltwater and keep light out of it. Keep the water circulating and up to a good temp (up to 90*) with weekly waterchanges for a few months...

Basically cooking rock is using bacteria to purge the rock of phosphates instead of algae (this is what is happening when you get hair algae in your tank)


The biggest piece of advice I can give you is patience is key to a healthy long term tank. If you think you are having trouble now affording the setup after the first crash (as well as all the money you lost after that crash), think about how much more money you are going to loose by rushing again...

Take your time and learn the basics of chemistry for SPS (at least how everything works and why you need to maintain those levels as well as regular waterchanges). Doing this will help keep you interested in the hobby and will help mitigate the downs and elevate the ups.

[ckusnierek]

Cooking is a means of purging PO4 from your rocks. Usually done by soaking for a few months. but there are more rapid methods.

The only reason I mentioned it is because you said your tank crashed, sometimes after a crash ppl will just leave things sit for a while before taking the tank down or cleaning up the mess. If it sits like that it can really load up your rock with phosphates which will lead to algae issues down the road.

[three90s&125sump]

Cooking is a way to purge the rock of PO4. PO4 binds to calcium carbonate (your rock) and the only way to get it out is by bacterial turgor by means of deprivision of PO4 containing nutrients. Do a search on cooking live rock to get a more in depth description and a how to on it if noone else chimes in. I don't ever recomend starting a system with out first purging the rock of as much PO4 as you can stand.

[tdwyatt]

Originally Posted by FutureDoc

Oh, come on, SPS chem does not need to be that specific.

...This must be why these types of corals are so easy to maintain for years and everyone is so successful with stony reef top biotopes for 40 years or more…

I guess it comes down to just how much information or detail such a question begs.

Originally Posted by FutureDoc

Stability Promotes Success (SPS)

Actually this is only really true in some captive closed systems, and even then only to a degree.

Think of the reef top biotope: many species thrive there with twice a day exposure to air, incessant predation (parrotfishes), regular exposure to freshwater (rain), 4-6 times a year or more often trauma due to hurricanes or typhoons, annual upwelling that actually blooms much of the food important for corals to feed on (due to phytoplankton blooms that feed the zooplankton, etc.), daily changes in salinity, daily changes in high and low temps, and the associated change in average SST's, frequent exposure to levels of heat and UV that lead to bleaching events, and competitive events that often lead to monospecific stands of many corals (both reef top and octocoral biotopes). These parameters are by no means stable in the ocean in the ranges of most stony circumtropical corals. There is a two-volume set that deals with this topic at length by Tomas Tomasik, The Ecology of the Indonesian Seas, an excellent textbook set that really deals with the lack of stability in these environments and how reef top spp. deal with this instability and how it has helped improve diversity of the genera; definitely a good and informative read.

Fortunately, the chemical oceanography of hermatypic elements is relatively stable thanks to the relative size of the Ca++, HCO3- and associated other conservative element pools in the ocean compared to the area of coral ranges, but as pCO2 climbs in both its atmospheric concentration and in the role it plays in carbonate chemistry of the tropic’s photic zones, the stability of this pool changes from year to year, contributing its share to the dwindling diversity we are beginning to see in reef biotopes. Even though coral have survived three major extinction events in the ocean in terms of geologic time and managed to come back, corals have never had to deal with such a big change in such a short time, so in spite of their ability to deal well with changing climates, the changes of the last 300 years (the advent of the industrial age) in such a short time span will test even their coping skills.

The reason that stony corals often do better with stable system parameters in closed systems is the inability of many reefkeepers to supply biotopes more closely matched to the environments many corals are taken from, and folks exceed population densities and make non-biotopic mixes of creature with conflicting needs.


HTH

[bcrum51]

Originally Posted by collin

ok let me restate my question ive had my tank for over a year and it crashed...i have a nova extreme 8x54 t5(not individual reflectors) and a 2" sand bed....2 hydor 4s and a aquaclear 80..emperor 400 filter and idk the name of my skimmer but its a hob and my lfs recomended it as well as people in my group.....ive tryed sps befor and something went wrong but idk waht happened so im restarting and ima try to do it better this time so i just need help with what i need to do to keep colorful and healthy sps corals...
thanks
collin

Ok filtration is an issue here not that its not good but just not good enough for SPS IMO I think to run a successful SPS system you need a sump so you can boost the skimming and add reactors and gain more water quanity I don't know what I have against Hang on filters but I just don't like them not only are they an eye sore but can cause problems along the way in a sump system you open doors to all sort of extra thing that aren't a must have but do help in over all tank stability this is just my own opinion on how to successfully keep SPS alot of people do things differently that work for awhile but its not lasting

[three90s&125sump]

I'm glad I'm not trying to keep a reef top biotope.

Tom... Are you OK? Is this thread bothering you?

To all... As I stated that I would never recomend starting a system with out first purging the rock of as much PO4 as you can stand... I also do not recommend duelling with Tom.