need sps help

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted by tdwyatt

...This must be why these types of corals are so easy to maintain for years and everyone is so successful with stony reef top biotopes for 40 years or more…

I guess it comes down to just how much information or detail such a question begs.


Actually this is only really true in some captive closed systems, and even then only to a degree.

Think of the reef top biotope: many species thrive there with twice a day exposure to air, incessant predation (parrotfishes), regular exposure to freshwater (rain), 4-6 times a year or more often trauma due to hurricanes or typhoons, annual upwelling that actually blooms much of the food important for corals to feed on (due to phytoplankton blooms that feed the zooplankton, etc.), daily changes in salinity, daily changes in high and low temps, and the associated change in average SST's, frequent exposure to levels of heat and UV that lead to bleaching events, and competitive events that often lead to monospecific stands of many corals (both reef top and octocoral biotopes). These parameters are by no means stable in the ocean in the ranges of most stony circumtropical corals. There is a two-volume set that deals with this topic at length by Tomas Tomasik, The Ecology of the Indonesian Seas, an excellent textbook set that really deals with the lack of stability in these environments and how reef top spp. deal with this instability and how it has helped improve diversity of the genera; definitely a good and informative read.

Fortunately, the chemical oceanography of hermatypic elements is relatively stable thanks to the relative size of the Ca++, HCO3- and associated other conservative element pools in the ocean compared to the area of coral ranges, but as pCO2 climbs in both its atmospheric concentration and in the role it plays in carbonate chemistry of the tropic’s photic zones, the stability of this pool changes from year to year, contributing its share to the dwindling diversity we are beginning to see in reef biotopes. Even though coral have survived three major extinction events in the ocean in terms of geologic time and managed to come back, corals have never had to deal with such a big change in such a short time, so in spite of their ability to deal well with changing climates, the changes of the last 300 years (the advent of the industrial age) in such a short time span will test even their coping skills.

The reason that stony corals often do better with stable system parameters in closed systems is the inability of many reefkeepers to supply biotopes more closely matched to the environments many corals are taken from, and folks exceed population densities and make non-biotopic mixes of creature with conflicting needs.


HTH

Forgive me, I was not looking to provide "mis-information", just merely trying to provide information at the level it would hopefully be absorbed (or not). We can toss as much "Ca" in the "water" as we want but... you know, only a certain amount can be "utilized" because there are other "limiting factors" .

I recognize that not all reefs are stable environments and it can be argued that "stability" is a relative term, often only used when human knowledge is either to young or lacking regarding the the swings of the natural processes. However, since the debate between stability and instability is more of a human construct, it should be focused on more quantifiable periods within the natural sciences. But... (don't y'all love the "but') since the practitioners of the hobby are more susceptible to causing change in a tank as compared to the natural world, making the basic claim to keep water parameters within a certain constant range over periods of time, is for now, a more successful means of keeping many coral species available to the hobby.

[tdwyatt]

Originally Posted by three90s&125sump

I'm glad I'm not trying to keep a reef top biotope.

Tom... Are you OK? Is this thread bothering you?

Jason, you know nothing ever bothers me in a good discussion.

I do like to occasionally stir the pot if the discussion is well-thought through and based on fact, so long as it does not become argumentum ad hominem. The reason our database grows is through discussion and new POV. For example, there is so much to chemical oceanography that I have three different textbooks here just on that topic, and a pair that are on specific portions of the chemistry of stony corals and how calcification is linked to photosynthesis, so to have some state that "...there is no need for being that picky…" is usually a signal that we need to open the discussion up so that the poster can clarify exactly what they want info on, rather than leaving the post insufficiently answered, or worse, that someone might not respond at all. Usually, such a broad opening question is brought about by the desire to have answers for something much more specific; asking for more precise questions often gives us the opportunity to give the questioner an adequate answer.

I trust this clarifies the response, I did not intend to PO anyone nor give the impression that I might be.

I have had students often ask broad questions when they really want the answer to a very specific question that they don't know enough about to verbally formulate a good specific question, so they do the best they can with what they have. The lead in to such a question may often be, "...I have a stupid question, but..."

My response starts with, "the only stupid question is one not asked."

[three90s&125sump]

I keep mainly LPS (I used to keep octos but learned of the problems involved with mixing them with stonies, thanks Tom ) I have never run an SPS tank "successfully". I prolly could now but I love LPS. I do "successfully" keep some SPS in my systems but I doubt I will ever run an SPS system. I have been doing this since I was 20 (or so) and I'm 33 (34 in a couple months). I know I don't know everything (and I never will) but I know enough to do what I want (with a tolerable amount of failure) and I try to test my self from time to time to see if I have learned anything. Failure happens, but in order for the failure to not be a complete loss you have to learn from it.

[three90s&125sump]

Originally Posted by tdwyatt

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I did not intend to PO anyone nor give the impression that I might be.

I don't think you were nore do I think anyone thinks you were. Its the way you say things, your nice about facts... to a certain extent. I have given misinformation in the past and you have corrected me. I actually envy your way with words. I know I'm intelligent and I know what I want to say but I don't know how to say it. You do.

Originally Posted by tdwyatt

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I have had students often ask broad questions when they really want the answer to a very specific question that they don't know enough about to verbally formulate a good specific question, so they do the best they can with what they have.

That's a good way to explain it. My problem is that when a broad/generalized question is brought up and I know that a person doesn't know enough about something to know what they are even asking or the question its self is contradictory I ussually come off as rude and arrogant when in actually I am really trying to help them.

You are a good teacher and I would have loved it if at some point in my life I could have had a formal education delivered by you.