Salt

[steveweast]

Why don't you guys just test the salt for yourself instead of relying upon some study that usually has an agenda. IO has a Mg level of 900+/-....a Ca level of 380+/-.....and has for years (unless they changed their formula recently). IO does not have a good rep among those serious reefers raising corals because of these low values that should be brought up to ocean levels with each use. It is popular only because it is widely distributed and easily obtained and will work just fine among the vast majority of tanks out there....because the vast majority of tanks out there are fish only. Also, if you research this and other boards, you'll find numerous posts on IO's past problems with high alk....they may have solved the quality control issue by now...or maybe not....can't say.

I would only use a salt that tests with common/ cheap Sailfert test kits the following values:

Ca....400 -450

Mg....1250 -1400

Alk.....at least 8

PO4....0

NO3....0

It's that simple.....you should have these test kits sitting on your shelf now....if you are a coral keeper. There really are very few salts out that will meet these values...Oceanpure, Tropic Marin, Oceanic, and Kent are some that do.....but, you also need to continue to check with each new bucket....sometimes formulas can change or a company can be bought out (as is the case with Kent; but, I don't think that it affected the salt formula). I don't rely upon anyone telling me what to use...I test for myself. Why would I want to use a salt that I have to augment...or change my reactor settings to compensate for a salt...then change them back....that's just nuts when there are other options out there.

As for my system, I do use kalk and a reactor....in fact, a ton of it. I go through around 5lbs of reactor media a month....there is no way that I'm resetting all my Ca drip levels to compensate for a poor salt...only to have to have to readjust them again when the Ca gets back up to the 420 level....and reactors don't add Mg (or very much)...that has to be done manually.

I'm just curious why you go for the salt that doesn't mix to ocean values for the key coral keeping values of Ca, Mg, Alk, PO4, and NO3 when there are other options local to you. No matter what salt you choose....at least choose one that meets the ocean levels that we can readily test for.....and if IO is meeting those levels now...then fine...but, I doubt that it does since it is more costly to meet those values and the majority of their buyers don't care if it does or not since they are fish only.

[steveweast]

One more thing....it is the final values of the mixed water that matters most....you want those ocean values if you are keeping corals. I know of several very dedicated reefers that are using IO.....but they mix it with Oceanic (since Oceanic has a little too high of Ca and Mg).....and that's fine....it's the final water Ca, Mg, Alk, PO4, NO3 values that matter most. Another thing you can do is ask some of the premiere reefs around here what they use and why....ask Randy....or as Travis.....IO won't be mentioned unless it is mixed with something else.

[Lowman]

Steve, enlighten us please, what brand of salt do you use?

[steveweast]

OK...one last thing....there are no studies out there that accurrately (scientifically peer reviewed) reflect a salt's true make up (trace elements). These are costly tests. The only true independent test was done about a year ago through reefs.org. They raised quite a bit of cash to pay for those kinds of tests....but, before the test results were released, they were threatened with legal action from some salt manufacturers....that ended that. Someday, we'll get a great mix and know exactly what is in it (especially trace elements)....but, until then, all that we can do is rely upon our own test kits and test for the major components and at least ensure that those match sea levels.

[steveweast]

In the past....I've used Kent, Oceanpure, and Oceanic without any issues. I'm not pimping any particular brand....just pick something that gives you ocean levels in those key areas....if you're an sps/lps coral keeper. Currently, I'm using Oceanpure.....only because that was the best deal at the time that I could get buying it in bulk (by the pallet).....and that Oceanic's slightly elevated Mg level would trend too high in my tank over time.

And remember...please test every batch before use.....any manufacturer can have a bum batch.

[michael7979]

WOW STEVE!!!!!!!!

Thats alot of information and good info. at that.

I'm sure alot of people will now start to test ALL new buckets/bags of salt they get now.

If you have been lucky enough to see Steves tank or pictures of it......you know Steve knows what he is saying.

[tashier]

Originally Posted by steveweast

Another thing you can do is ask some of the premiere reefs around here what they use and why....ask Randy....or as Travis.....IO won't be mentioned unless it is mixed with something else.

Why would Travis carry it in his store and say it's fine to use if he knows it's not up to reef standards.

[tashier]

Originally Posted by steveweast

OK...one last thing....there are no studies out there that accurrately (scientifically peer reviewed) reflect a salt's true make up (trace elements). These are costly tests. The only true independent test was done about a year ago through reefs.org. They raised quite a bit of cash to pay for those kinds of tests....but, before the test results were released, they were threatened with legal action from some salt manufacturers....that ended that. Someday, we'll get a great mix and know exactly what is in it (especially trace elements)....but, until then, all that we can do is rely upon our own test kits and test for the major components and at least ensure that those match sea levels.

Legal action for a comparison? Give me a break. Where in the world are you getting this stuff? So all the comparisons on light bulbs, skimmers, cars or any other consumer product is done with the threat of legal action? I don't think so.

[tashier]

Originally Posted by steveweast

In the past....I've used Kent, Oceanpure, and Oceanic without any issues. I'm not pimping any particular brand....just pick something that gives you ocean levels in those key areas....if you're an sps/lps coral keeper. Currently, I'm using Oceanpure.....only because that was the best deal at the time that I could get buying it in bulk (by the pallet).....and that Oceanic's slightly elevated Mg level would trend too high in my tank over time.

And remember...please test every batch before use.....any manufacturer can have a bum batch.

If good salt is more expensive to make, how can you be using Oceanpure, it's one of the cheapest out there. There is also more to salt than just the desirable elements. There are salts that come with undesirable elements in very high quantities. From what I've read, no salt comes very close to NSW but IO was the closest when taking into account ALL the elements both good and bad. I haven't seen any detailed data on the Oceanpure yet but I'd like to. It was the last salt I used and seemed to be fine. The alk seemed a bit low.

[steveweast]

"Why would Travis carry it in his store and say it's fine to use if he knows it's not up to reef standards."


Because IO it is perfectly fine for most applications....softy tanks....fish only....just not stony corals. Like I said....there are quite a few reefers who mix it with Oceanic (which is slightly too high in Ca and Mg) with great results....IO just is very low in Ca and Mg.....past that it is fine. It needs to be brought up to ocean levels if used in a reef application. Travis is not there to hold your hand.....salt choice is a personal issue.... it's up to you to make an informed decision. If you are keeping critters that don't care about those values...ie...fish only or softy....then it is fine out of the box. BTW...Travis uses either Oceanpure or Oceanic....or mixes them.

Here's a great example on this subject. Seachem salt is currently under fire. The salt normally has good values right out of the box.....but....they just had a bad batch that is wrecking havoc on some very high end reefs. Please read this entire thread....it has some great info. Start at page 4 where Seachem chimes in and admits there was a bad batch....and is recalling the bad salt as best as they can. The REAL interesting stuff happens on the following 10 pages after that though.....apparently Seachem is very high in boron which will skew most alk test kits. If you think that you're running a dkh of 8.....in reality, you're running 6...ouch. This will apply to other salts that might be high in boron too.....although the concensus is that Seachem is unique in its high boron content. While not harmful in of itself....its concentration needs to be subtracted from the overall alk value....very interesting stuff....definitely worth reading 14 pages. I'm off to find a boron test kit.


http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6849

[steveweast]

"Legal action for a comparison? Give me a break. Where in the world are you getting this stuff?"


This is a bit hostile....I'm just imparting some info. You don't have to read it if you don't want to.I'm getting this stuff from having been very active in monitoring many different message boards for the past 5 years. Do a search on reefs.org for the study....it went on and on for about 12 months.

[steveweast]

The legal action was threatened under libel....even if victorious....the individual who ran the study would have had to put out a pretty penny to defend himself. His admition of the pressure was buried in one of those many threads....I can't seem to find it....but, it doesn't really mater anyway.

[steveweast]

A salt's final price is based upon many things....cost of supply...margins...and motive. Taam puts out Oceanpure and imports the stuff from China (raw materials are less probably).....and is most likely, at least for now, willing to take a little less margin to gain market share. AND....I'm only using Oceanpure as an example....all that I'm saying is test your salt for yourself and be able to intelligently answer why you're using it....if you want to use something with less than ocean levels of Ca and Mg....live it up.

[steveweast]

Trace element content is very controversial.....and unfortuneatly...is out of our control. There was a huge controversy on RC two or three years ago where their on board expert Ron Shimek (sp ?) did an in depth experimentation with urchin embryos and the effect upon their survival with some instant salts....the result was that IO was the most toxic salt tested on those embryos. The impact....everyone jumped to the salt that Ron liked best...crystal seas....which may have been great for urchins....but was terrible for sps. I'm ashamed to admit that I got caught up in that bandwagon and lost about a third of my tank...live and learn.

The moral is....no one knows the effect of the trace elements on our critters....the best that we have is knowing the results of the major components...Ca, Mg, alk, PO4, NO3. Someone...I forget who (it might have been Jerel here on TRT)....once told me something that I'll never forget....it went something like this..."if any part of the ocean had the heavy metal values of any of the salt mixes that we use today....it would be an EPA superfund site"

[steveweast]

Here is a link to some of the data that came from that reefs.org study. It basically finds that ALL salts have toxic levels of something....you just have to pick your poison. If I remember right....the study was being conducted by a vendor (not a salt vendor)...and it was he that was being threatened (which he disclosed in one of the many threads on the subject).....reefs.org's mag did eventually publish some of the info from that study.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/12/aafeature1

It basically comes down to personal choice....and until we have more info (which will be many years)....the best that we can do is make a decision on the things that we do know the impact.....Ca, Mg, alk.