Not to be taken "Lightly"

[reefcam]

Hey Ryan Mackey, not you Krux - Ryan, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts if you are able to make it to Steve on Sunday. Tell the owner you are sick... oh wait, that doesn't work for you.

But after looking at this post, the only conclusion I received was what people are using. Your side-by-side comparison with the haze look for the 13K bulb where the 20K bulb looks crystal clear is not a very valid argument. mainly because there are too many variables in each tank to dismiss this argument. Now if you did the same experiement in 2 tanks with just water from the same source and no corals or anything else in the tank, include circulation, then it will hold some water (no pun intended). To make such a strong argument as which light is better, aside from personal preference, you need to have control and the test subject. But most of all, a consistent set of environment aside from the subject being tested. In this case, the light bulbs. JMO. Now I'm off to get a beer. Wife says I need to calm down.

[Ryan Mackey]

Well Reefcam, I hope that beer did the trick!(calming you down and all) I have included a photo here of the tanks in question. Although I never suggested this was any kind of scientific process, there are few variables between these tanks. They are both All-Glass 125g reef-ready tanks with 6ft PFO acrolights, they share the same water supply, have the same live rock and similar corals, are at the same height on the same stand. In fact, in the real world, these tanks could not be closer to the same! Man, now I need a beer! (just kiddin)
In closing, I only said that I like the 20K Radium bulbs. I would not presume to conclude that one type is better or best. These are value judgements that have no scientific basis, only emotional bias.
So you decide. The tank on the left is 20K Radiums and VHO's, the tank on the right is 13K PFO and VHO. Which seems to have more clarity to you? Which color do you like better? Which one seems to have more of a "haze"?

[Krux]

the one on the left does indeed apear clearer.

i would be interested in seeing a shot from the reverse angle, where the 20k tank is the one you are looking through 4 feet of water on and the 13k tank is the one you are looking at 2 feet of depth on. just trying to figure if water occlusion is responsible a bit.

[zoonut]

Hey Ryan,

My friend Lonzo who owns a LFS is running two 1,000wt 10K's and two 400wt 20's over his 6'x6' look down system. Pretty darn bright and I love it! Give him a call, I am sure he would love to discuss this system with you. Email or PM me if you want his number.

ZN

[zoonut]

OH----20k's-VHO's-PC's and natural sunlight!

[reefcam]

Ryan M, a simple test to show the comparison is to swap just the MH bulb out on the same tank, given that the other lighting parameter and ballast are the same. Even though the water is from the same source, there could be more or less current in one tank than the other. You have at least the water as a common source, but there are too many other variables in your comparison. What I like about your shop set is the different lights running next to each other. I don't know of any other LFS that does that... a really good way to help your buyers determine what they like.

Here's the real problem, and I have my flame shield on, but you are down South. C'mon up and play with us.

[michael7979]

The 20 k tank is the clearest of the 3. I can tell you from being at Advanced Aquaruim many times.

[reefcam]

I'm not disagreeing that the 20K tank may look the clearest, but to be fair to all bulbs, if Ryan can swap just the bulbs out and take pictures again, then we can say that's a good test. But to say A is clearer than B and only water is the common parameter with a many other differences, you are basically saying a Mercedes is better than a BMW and both have Michelin tires.

[reefcam]

Here's what I did for a lighting comparison a couple of years ago. All parameters were kept the same except for the MH that was in comparison:

http://www.romperroo.com/FishCorner/...comparison.htm

This is all I was getting at. If Ryan could do the same that would be great.

Jim

[Ryan Mackey]

Well, this line of discussion has taken a hard left turn away from the facts, purpose, and point of its intent. Although I did say the 20K was my favorite, all you reefers of free will are allowed personal bias to decide what color of bulb you like best! Liking something the best is not the same as saying it is the best. That is the difference between personal preference and egocentrism.
I was hoping to hear stories about others experience with bulb/ballast/kelvin temp combinations. I wanted to hear about growth rate, color rendition, brightness, and other issues of personal and emotional responses, which lead other reefers to like or dislike qualities of their lighting systems. These gut reactions are the only measure we can rely on, as we were not taking lux readings, monitoring growth rates, or employing any scientific process in this discussion. What do you use, what do you like, and why? This was never meant to be an experiment.
As for your side by side comparison suggestion: it makes good sense. My problems with it are many. The enclosed fixtures are ducted together for heat abatement, ballasts are different and cables are scotch tied together, and finally, I'm not sure that I would be doing my animals any favors subjecting them to different color temp light even for photo purposes! Risks are many, value is little, effort would be significant, and still all your other variables would be in play.
Was I reckless to report my personal likes or dislikes in this forum? Did I endanger the "civil liberties" of 13K bulbs everywhere with my suggestion that 20K light offers greater clarity? Shame on me. I can only hope that those of you reading this can tell the difference between a bad person and bad behaviors! I want to be good, really I do!(kiddin) Ryan@advancedreef.com

[DonJasper]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mackey

I wanted to hear about growth rate, color rendition, brightness, and other issues of personal and emotional responses, which lead other reefers to like or dislike qualities of their lighting systems.

OH! Well that's easy. Whichever one we bought is the one we like. (And so it the one we thing everyone else should have ;) ) That involves some sort of engineering: Can I afford it? What's it cost to run?

Taking me as an example:

MH - nixed off my list due to heat (no AC in the house and I'm NOT buying a chiller for my fish. "Nice and comfy fish? That's good, I'm sweating buckets, but as long as you're comfortable ... LOL ) Pretty expensive even if you DIY.

T-5 - nixed 'cause you gotta buy those fancy gullwing reflector$ to do any good, and bulbs aren’t cheap. If/when Lowes/Home Depot sells T-5 bulbs by the box - I'll probably talk myself into shelling out the clams for the reflectors for a DIY solution.

VHO - Ok so this is what I can afford. Inexpensive DIY. Overdrive NO bulbs. Limits my choices of creatures - but then money limits that as well. $250 for a frag of a blue coral ain't gunna happen, unless maybe I hit the lottery.

PC - Bulbs more expensive than overdriving NO bulbs - no benefits over VHO. I did it 'cause I didn't know any better.

I've got a 20 amp circuit that I installed in my house specifically for Christmas lights (I'm a man that likes a good outdoor display). I got tired of melting lamp timers, and then resetting circuit breakers. And that's it - (I don't cheat) - so drive by my house and you're looking at no more than 20 amps turned on at 5:30pm and off at 10:00pm. The same sort of thing applies to the aquarium - but in this case it's limited by the fixture cost. Removing that as a constraint - I'm not sure that I'd hang a 10 kilowatt/hour perfect lighting system over my tank even if the fixture was 'free'.

I've no input on my personal tastes and the color temp. Knowing my tastes (none!) - I'd start with 20K - and only step down if it looked "unnnatural".

[reefcam]

Originally Posted by Ryan Mackey

Well, this line of discussion has taken a hard left turn away from the facts, purpose, and point of its intent. Although I did say the 20K was my favorite, all you reefers of free will are allowed personal bias to decide what color of bulb you like best! Liking something the best is not the same as saying it is the best. That is the difference between personal preference and egocentrism.
I was hoping to hear stories about others experience with bulb/ballast/kelvin temp combinations. I wanted to hear about growth rate, color rendition, brightness, and other issues of personal and emotional responses, which lead other reefers to like or dislike qualities of their lighting systems. These gut reactions are the only measure we can rely on, as we were not taking lux readings, monitoring growth rates, or employing any scientific process in this discussion. What do you use, what do you like, and why? This was never meant to be an experiment.
As for your side by side comparison suggestion: it makes good sense. My problems with it are many. The enclosed fixtures are ducted together for heat abatement, ballasts are different and cables are scotch tied together, and finally, I'm not sure that I would be doing my animals any favors subjecting them to different color temp light even for photo purposes! Risks are many, value is little, effort would be significant, and still all your other variables would be in play.
Was I reckless to report my personal likes or dislikes in this forum? Did I endanger the "civil liberties" of 13K bulbs everywhere with my suggestion that 20K light offers greater clarity? Shame on me. I can only hope that those of you reading this can tell the difference between a bad person and bad behaviors! I want to be good, really I do!(kiddin) Ryan@advancedreef.com

Easy there big fella. I think this makes a good discussion at the meeting. So are you going to be there? Steve actually runs all the lights mentioned above, with exclusion of T5 and PC. I was going to upgrade my VHO to T5, but decided to tear my tank down and rework the entire system from ground up. So this should just be fun. Slowly my corals are disappearing so it won't be long before I'm having a dry spell like many others. But the new system will be much better.

[zenguitar]

I'm using four 400 watt 12,000k Halides on the new ice cap MH ballasts with four VHO actinics on a pair of ice cap 660 ballasts for the 225. That's 2040 watts of light. It shines very nicely but I am going to switch to 10k bulbs when the 12k's wear out because I think the 12's lean a little too much towards blue when coupled with the actinics and I prefer a bright tank. The 12k's were mostly just an experiment and I wanted to see how they looked. Anyway, everything is currently doing great under that light. I do have one four inch fan pointed at each of the MH bulbs and so far the tank has been a perfect 79.5 degrees constantly. I was initially concerned about the heat but it turned out to not be a problem.

[Illusion]

I prefer 10k bulbs with Strong VHO actinic supplements.. I run 2x250w 10k Ushio bulbs and 2x110w URI actinic VHOs.. They look alot different than the 2x55w PCs that I run on the tank... Gives the tank a nice whitish blue look... Its only a 55g tank but I have been buying everything with Upgrading in mind... The XM bulbs look very close to the ushio but The XMs seem a little bit more white to me... I prefer the Xm bulbs over the Ushios after using both..

James

[chewie]

Does this poll get bumped every time somebody votes? It seems to get bumped at least twice a week(which is a good thing).

Alice, can you sticky this poll? I'll buy you a pepsi