Algae problems!!!

AnalogPro · 07-03-2004, 08:26 PM

Hi all,

Being the knowledgable group that you are, I need some desperate help.
My tank has had algae problems for over a year now. I huge amount seems to crop up within 5 days. I wipe it away, and as we all know, comes back in just a few days.
The problem is that I have been dealing with this algae in such a regard:
No direct light
Keeping the lights on for less than 10 hours per day
NO fish in the tank ( hence no ammonia)

I use this weird aquarium pharmaceutical tap water filter to create my water for the tank... It states that the filter gets rid of phosphates and most silicates.
So I'm at a loss. What else can be done to minimize the growth?

If anybody has any ideas and suggestions ( other than "buy an RO unit") please let me know!

I'd upload pictures of the algae if I knew how =]

Thanks

michael7979 · 07-03-2004, 08:33 PM

What do you have for water movement? Powerheads, pumps? Maybe you can get more circulation/ current in your tank to help. Do you have crabs, snails, shrimp?

DennisW · 07-03-2004, 10:55 PM

Ian,

What is your nitrate level? Do you think the new rock caused a small cycle? I really wouldnt think so since it was, as far as I could tell, 100% cured. Hmm....

Dennis

Imaexpat2 · 07-04-2004, 12:14 AM

Need some more info to do a lot in the way of help you.

Whats the water parameters?
What kind of lights are you running?
What else is in the tank besides water and algae?
Are you running a skimmer?
How old is the tank?

These are just a few needed answers off the top of my head to make any real suggestions.

AnalogPro · 07-05-2004, 01:45 PM

At the moment, the tank doesn't have any fish or animals in it. The only thing alive are the live rocks.

I'm about ready to get my water tested and will let you know what that comes back with..
I currently have a skimmer, yet its a backpack sort of module which doesn't seem to nearly have the efficiency as a cylindrical one... I'm tempted on buying a new skimmer... OH OH, which, btw, I discovered last nite that the skimmer isn't working properly!! The idea is for the skimmer to create oxygen bubbles in one sector then transfer over to the next sector where it goes through a filter medium and back out to the tank. Well, the water in the oxygen transfer sector is overflowing and flowing directly out into the tank... bypassing the filter media and protein catcher.
Obviously this is a problem and will remedy this today...
As for lighting, I have a 50/50 bulb which is almost exactly 6 months old..

The age of the tank depends on your stage of birth =]
The tank has been 'saltwater' for about a year yet only had fish in it for the purpose of cycling. The reason why its been so long is due to this horrible algae outbreak thats been with me from the beginning.

Any suggestions or need more info?? I'll get the water parameters posted today, so i hope =]

thankx in advance!

AnalogPro · 07-05-2004, 04:25 PM

Okay,

So here's the skinny:

Setup:
Magnum 350
Dual Bio-Wheel ( no idea why i have it since I have live rock)
Protein Skimmer ( Skilter backpack... not very efficient... never really did pick up any protein)
Lighting: 50/50 but just changed to 20k
Aquarium Pharmeceuticals Tap Water Filter to create water for tank ( ya ya, I should get an RO unit someday)

Water parameters:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Chlorine: 0
Nitrate: 25mg/l
Nitrate Nitrogen: 25 div 4.4... do the math =]
SG: 1.023

I am in the process of building a hood for the tank that can hold four 2' bulbs. At the moment I have a temporary 2' T12 size bulb... yes, just one.

I just bought a few hermit crabs to see how good of algae consumers they are...

I know that my nitrate level is a bit high. It may even be a bit above 25mg/l. Maybe I need to do a more serious water change...

Oh, and also I just retrofitted the protein skimmer so it does not bypass the filter cartridge. Seems to work good finally..

Any suggestions on what else I can do to inhibit the large growth of algae???

Thanks again in advance for all your expert advice!!

Krux · 07-06-2004, 02:07 PM

the suction cup and the string stuck on the outside of the tank is obviously the problem!

I would definately look at getting a new skimmer, although with no waste production, that will not fix the current situation. when you do start stocking the tank with fish and what not, the skilter will very quickly become overworked and will eventually actually do more harm that it does good. you should research some other hang on back solutions for skimmers and start saving for one. in order from least expensive and arguably least productive to the best and most expensive are the red sea prizm skimmer at around 75 bucks (make sure to get the upgrade kit for surface skimming for an additional 25 dollars) the cpr aquatics backpack 2r, the red sea prizm pro, and finally the aquac rhemora at around 225 with the maxijet upgrade. there are a number of other brands and configurations, but these are pretty easy to find and there is a lot of product reviews available for all of them. incidentally, the prizm is good for tanks up to around 55 gallons, the rhemora is good for tanks up to around 90 gallons if i remember. larger than that and you should be running a sump, or two skimmers. keep in mind that manufacturers will often overinflate the capacity that their skimmers will effectivly work on. research what tank size you have and what people are sucessfully using. just because the skilter says it works on tanks up to 100 gallons or whatever it says, doesnt mean it will be adequate, this holds true for almost all manufacturers.

definately look into doing some good water changes. i missed what size tank you have, but if you can shoot to do a 10-25% water change once a week for the next couple weeks that will help get the parameters in line.

I suspect that the problem lies in the phosphates. any detectable phosphate levels are too much, for chemistry reasons which i can not clearly explain just keep that rule of thumb in mind. if you have the funds to pick up a small aquaclear power filter, around 45 bucks for the ac 70 (previously called the ac 300), you can remove the media baskets and put small bags of nitrate and phosphate sponges (actually it is a resin type media that you put into mesh bags, not a sponge per se) into the area and the water flow will pass the water over them. the nice thing about the aquaclears is that you can adjust the flow rate through them, and you will want to initially have it cranked all the way up, and after a week or so slow it all the way down to incerase contact time. be sure to remove and replace the sponges as directed as some can releach chemicals back into the water once saturated. this is also a great place to occasionally place carbon to polish the water. once you upgrade tanks and use a sump, you can either toss the sponges down there and ditch the aquaclear, or you can build a mini-fuge in there with one of those little 7 watt pc lights, some sand, and a piece of macro algae covered live rock and keep it going.

some folks are moving toward the use of phosphate reactors, if you go to the bbq you can see steve's in action. they can be purchased for that purpose, or there are a number of diy projects to make one. this is probably not a good solution for you at this point however as that can be an expensive piece of equipment to put together.

oh, and do for sure add a powerhead or two, or start researching closed loop systems and think about adding one of those to your tank down the line. adequate water flow is crucial to controlling algae (the above mentioned aquaclear media device diy project will add flow, but you can always use more).

finally a few bottom grazing snails can help, look into a conch or some cerith/nerite snails. woody carries all of these. glass and rock cleaning snails will be of less help to you, you want something that will stay mostly on the bottom.

good luck!

Kevin1000 · 07-06-2004, 04:43 PM

My 02

If you don't have any livestock in the tank I would turn the lights off and keep the lights off - that takes away one important source of food for the algae.

If you read the instructions to your tap water filter you will note that it is good for only a limited number of gallons - unless your filter is pretty new and you have a small tank the filter has probably outlived its expected life.

Your skimmer is not very good even when working - if your looking for a good HOB skimmer Remora and Bak Pak are probably the best two out there. You can get a factory second Remora for about $110 - contact the mgf.

I am uncertain how to interpret your nitrate comment - if your nitrate level is around 6 that would not be a signficant source of an algae bloom - leaving phosphates as the logical culprit. Not sure where your source of phosphates is coming from - tap water here in the PDX area does not have much phosphate - not sure about Vancouver.

Std sources of phosphate are tap water, fish food, and live rock die off - not sure any of these are obvious candidates in an empty tank. I get the impression that this tank was once a freshwater tank - if this is correct and you used the old substrate then that would be a likely source. If so, cleaning the substrate may help - if the substrate is crushed coral it would be an opportune time to switch to a better substrate.

Don't forget the water changes - use RO water if you have any doubts about your tap water quality.

Hope this helps.

Krux · 07-06-2004, 05:31 PM

thats a great tip on the refurmished skimmer kevin, i will have to keep that in mind myself.

also i didnt consider that it might be due to old substrate.

definately change the filter in that tap water purifier thing.

you might want to entertain the idea of getting some premixed ro water, you might be able to find a fellow hobbyist in vancouver that will let you buy some water form them, or you can go to a place like seahorse where both ro and premixed water are available. this can be a temporary solution to your water quality issues until you can make the investment on an ro unit of your own, especially if your tank isnt a huge one.

Kevin1000 · 07-06-2004, 05:41 PM

Krux

I emailed Jason the President at Aqua C and asked if he had any factory seconds - got mine for $110 delivered (suppose to have a factory blemish but I sure could not fine one - suspect thats to satisfy the retailer).

I finally put my glasses on and took a look at pics of the "problem" algae tank - does not look like much of an algae problem to me - few snails would clean that up quick.

AnalogPro · 07-06-2004, 08:40 PM

Thanks for the info guys!

To give you the answers to some of your questions:

I have a new cartridge in the tapwater filter. only used it once so far. I used the previous cartridge for about 35 gallons. Evidently vancouver water isn't very good being that the color of the cartridge started turning black after 35 gallons... hence the new one.
Substrate: VERY VERY GOOD POINT! I actually alleviated it.
Yes... this was a freshwater tank for about 15 years. I finally made the transisition to salt. Initially I kept the old crushed coral when I went salt. What a horrible idea!! WAY too many porous! It was an instant algae-fest when switching to salt. So it only took me a couple days to realize that the old freshwater sustrate was a huge culprit and changed it out to sand.
That helped quite a bit, but I'm still having issues as you can see from the pics. ( oh, btw, you don't need glasses to view the pics, just click on it and it'll open up to the true size. I believe I made the pics to be as large as a 15" monitor").
Once you look at the pics at a 1:1 ratio you'll see a quite a bit of algae. All that is seen in the pictures is from 2 days of growth.
As for the skimmer, thanks so much for the help!!!!! I'm definately PO'd with what I have now. it NEVER froths... just kinda acts like another generic filter. I should have enough to purchase something like that in a couple weeks.
So I'm a bit confused as Kevin's confusion about the nitrate level.
My level tests a little over 25mg/l. From what I have been reading, that may be enough to allow algae to bloom. Is this true?

So I guess the answers so far are:
Get a good skimmer ( throw mine in trash)
turn off lights until the algae subsides ( I have live rock and hermit crabs in the tank so far)
Save up or ask my wife for an early birthday present, RO UNIT.
Buy another source of water movement ( I have one little Rio doing its job behind the live rock).
Buy a few ugly snails ( wife hates em)
Water change once a week ~15-20%. ya?

So a question for Dennis: Would the live rock be in a state to where a substantial amount will die off causing phosphates to go up?

I'll try this for now and see if anything changes...
Thanks again for all the info and help! I'd be skrewed without you guys!

DennisW · 07-06-2004, 11:02 PM

Boy I sure wouldnt think so Ian. It visably looks very clean and there is no smell to it. It has been curing in that can for a little over a month. anything is possible in this hobby. I shall find out in a week or two since I just added ~10lbs to my own tank.
Dennis

For those who are wondering, I sold Ian about 20lbs of cured Fiji rock about a week or two ago. Of which I still have about 25 or so pounds left ($2.50/lb) if anyone is interested (shameless plug)

AnalogPro · 07-06-2004, 11:28 PM

Dennis,

That sure is a shameless plug! =]
I don't have any cause to believe anything is wrong with the live rock you sold me. If anything, it's helping my tank, not hurting it. Which, btw, today was the first day I saw critters start coming out of the rocks. Kinda kewl for a saltwater virgin such as myself! My wife thinks I'm nuts staring at the tank all the time..

So how can I know if Aqua C has any refurbished skimmers that I can take off their hands?? I'd LOVE to get one. I'm thinking the sooner the better.
For the time being I'll probably drill a hole in the top of the Skilter skimmer and add an airstone with an external pump just so it creates more bubbles... I guess that's the engineer in me talking...

Also, is there any way of measuring phosphate levels?? Knowing what those levels are will definately help me understand the algae problem a little more.

Krux · 07-07-2004, 12:37 AM

you cn buy phosphate test kits, or if you are coming to the meeting, you might be able to get someone to bring along their kit and you can bring a water sample to check against it. the kits are going to be 1/3 the cost of the new used skimmer, so if you can rule out the phosphate theory for free, you can work on looking elsewhere.

of course as funds allow, that would be a good test kit to pick up!

Illusion · 07-07-2004, 01:48 AM

I would be willing to bring my Po4 kit to the meeting and test your water for you if you like... Its rather quick and simple.. You could also come to my house and I could test it for you here as well but its a bit far from Vancouver... Let me know If you want me to bring the kit to the meeting and I will..

James