why are all my sps getting lighter?

[SPC]

Rob, I still am wondering about the fish deaths, but as we know that may not have anything to do with your SPS problems. Unless someone can logically explain to me that a lack of organics in your system is the cause for your SPS problems, then I still must lean towards some other factor.

Originally Posted by Leonardo's Reef

I think it will help. Of course I don't know the exact situation with this tank, but when you look at the bioload and the problems, I would suggest to feed more.
Other members in this thread had the same problem, and most were just running their tanks too sterile (including myself)

I understand that Leonado, what I am questioning is the logic used with this. If you are saying that your observation was that your SPS corals "look better" sense you began adding more organics to the system, then that would be different then actual scientific data which shows this to be true. BTW, what observations do you use in determining your SPS' health?

Feeding more isn't a big change. It a relativly small change.

I disagree with this statement for a couple of reasons. First, "more" is a very subjective term, and second I believe that more SPS corals have been killed due to high organics than they have by starvation. What do I base this on? Years of experience seeing peoples fresh and salt water tanks crashing due to a larger organic load than their system can handle.

Therefore I think it is not a dangerous suggestion; If it doesn't bring improvement, stop it.Also when it gets bad faster (what I highly doubt).

Improvement in what period of time? Lets say that I have SPS that have lightened up due to high organics in the system (which first of all we would want to make sure which part of the coral is lightening up,and if a lightening of the polyps themselves is causing an "overall" look of lightening etc...). Now, we make the decision based on responses we get on the Reef Tank board,that our problem is due to lack of organics in our system and that we need to add more organics. By doing this is it possible that these added organics could send these corals over the edge to the point of no return (remember this is in a system that has had problems for a while)?

Personally I would recomment this before recomment changing ANYTHING else. (Like parameters, lighting, skimmer ajustment etc.)

...and this is where I am still having a problem understanding your logic.

I know for sure that when I say "try to feed more" people not going to pollute their tank heavily and kill everything because of high organics.

Well I will have to strongly disagree with this statement. Ask any LFS owner (or any long time aquarium keeper for that matter) what the number one cause has been for tank crashes in the last 50 years and I'll bet he will say overfeeding. It's a natural human thing to overfeed, one look at my Beagle will show that .

I know corals feed mostly by their zooxanthellae(they feed with light), but when you don't provide enough nutrients for that zooxanthellae, the corals will starve.

What type of nutrients and how much? Can detritus meet this requirement? Should we be feeding more or just making sure the detritus is kicked up into the water column and thus made available to the SPS coral (which only requires 10% or so to satisfy this nutritional need).

Also I would not compare tanks with the narural reefs. C:N:P ratio, lighting, flow, whole ecosystems etc. are so different that it is not comparable imo.

I agree that our little closed systems cannot be compared to the natural reef as a whole, Leonard, but there are still basic biological rules that apply to both. One example IMO would be current (as you mentioned above). What do we believe an SPS coral requiresin water flow in order to be healthy? Enough flow to deliver nutrients to it (which we still haven't come to an agreement on what these actually are), enough flow to take away waste and excess nutrients (...and BTW in a closed system that is full of organics,this part of the flow wouldn't make a differnece). So, setting aside the above "full of organics" example, what other flow can the natural reef provide that is not provided in our systems? A hurricane can help to bring some things back into balance (acropora being damaged and thus allowing the true reef building corals to get a leg up again), but would a hurricane type event really make a positive difference for our tanks?

IMO one of the most important differences between our systems and the natural reef,is the reefs ability to wash the excess organics away from the reef. Our systems being closed means that we must employ some means to try and accomplish this in a timely manner, and IME the systems that are good at handling this are the ones that have long term success with their SPS tanks. IMO before advicing someone to up their organic load in their system, we should first try and find out if their system is capable of removing the excess organics first.
Steve

[gwaco]

spc, i don't think that leonardo is recomending anyone to start dumping in food by the hand loads , just increasing the amount alittle at a time . of course if your already having troubles with heavy nutrients than feeding more will only worsen the problem . the one thing about adding more food is making sure you can also get the excess nutrients out quickly . if the zoo are leaving the corals than they're not happy , which possibly means that they left insearch of a better source for food . that is why i believe leonardo was suggesting adding more food to keep the zoo happy where they are at . unfortunatly "relative " is the key word here because we all know no two tanks will work the same . also unfortunatly we are not patient enough (me included ) that when we make changes , we expect things to change in days , not months .
so for leonardo all he was doing was trying to let you know what has worked for him with out tryin to get to scentific . cause only a few here can provide you with all the science of why ! i know i can't .

[Twitterbait]

Ok, my turn... mind you i have only read a few of the posts on this page i just hafta give input...

if you have algae then you are doing 1 of 3 things

1 feeding too much
2 not skimming enough/skimmer too small for a bb tank
3 not cleaning any detrius buildup often enough.

as far as corals going lighter... my first impression is that your lighting period is too long. a properly cleaned BB tank only needs 2-3 hours of MH light then drop it to some VHO's or something for the remainder of the viewing period.

the reason i say this is a logical progression. Zoox are there to convert light to energy for the coral... the less light there is, the more zoox are needed to give the coral sufficient food... conversely, the more/longer light you have the less zoox are needed to the point that the coral burns up from too much light.

those are my thoughts... I will leave it to spanky or wetherman to correct me (casey too )

[Weatherman]

Originally Posted by Twitterbait

I will leave it to spanky or wetherman to correct me (casey too )

wetherman don't know much about biology, so I wouldn't dare correct anyone on that subject


I just recently think I turned the corner in solving the problem with keeping any other coral besides my huge Pocillopora alive in my 120.

For the past few months, I've been actively running carbon 24/7, and I swapped out my Bullet 3 skimmer for a EuroReef RS100. Some of the acros, I had given up for dead, are now producing new branches. I still find it hard to believe that a Pocillopora would be effective at chemical warfare, but I can't figure out any other explanation to account for the change in conditions.

As far as skimmer effectiveness, the EuroReef does pretty well. The water is, maybe, a little more nutrient rich than it was with the Bullet 3, but I still only have to clean the glass about once every five days.

[Geoff]

BB behave differently than DSB's. it is very easy to overfeed a DSB. since the last several years people have been running DSB it is not surprising that the #1 cause of crashes is overfeeding. with a properly setup, high flow BB it is much more difficult to overfeed a tank.

interesting observation on the carbon Weatherman. i know Spanky does not like carbon due to the phosphates, but it might be something to try. it sure will not hurt, besides it could be killing two birds. the warefare and the lower nutrient levels if Carbon leaches phosphates.

i find keeping fish difficult. if i can get them to live past a month i am golden, i can keep them for years. i think if you loose a fish in less than a week, it is prolly not your fault if you are able to keep corals alive in the system.

G~

[Geoff]

an observation i have made since going to a BB.

the weed SPS do not seem to do as well. while the slow growing ones do not seem to mind being in a BB tank. i have a few frags of the blue tort and it is growing as fast as it ever does. if i slow down on feeding for any length of time i will see my birdsnest, pocillipora and other weed SPS start bleaching and receeding. my purple cap does not seem to be affected, but my red and orange are.

it may have something to do with the hosted symbiots in the corals also.

thoughts?

G~

[Rob_Reef_Keeper]

hmm - weird thing the Bali green slimer is growing well and not bleaching but most everything else is - torts, acros, stylo, millies,

[SPC]

Originally Posted by gwaco

spc, i don't think that leonardo is recomending anyone to start dumping in food by the hand loads , just increasing the amount alittle at a time .

Hi Gary, now we have to quantify that "little" word . Personally I can't imagine a system that houses other species of animals such as a fish or two, some snails, etc... being so clean that an SPS coral would starve. I can imagine, however, a system that holds onto it's organics (sump accumulation, filter sock not changed out, lack of flow in the main tank, inadequate skimmer etc...) being the real causes of unhealthy SPS corals. Adding a little food to this system, then sitting back and waiting, could cause a domino effect leading to a trank crash.

I understand that Leonard is trying to help Rob here and I feel that is very admirable, but I also feel that this "feed your SPS system more" advice can be dangerous for this hobby (which is already under the watchful eye of PETA etc...).

if the zoo are leaving the corals than they're not happy , which possibly means that they left insearch of a better source for food . that is why i believe leonardo was suggesting adding more food to keep the zoo happy where they are at .

so for leonardo all he was doing was trying to let you know what has worked for him with out tryin to get to scentific . cause only a few here can provide you with all the science of why ! i know i can't

Yes I agree this is why Leonard made this suggestion, and this suggestion is why I found it necessary to question the science behind it, in Rob's particular situation. IMO we as a hobby can no longer afford to "experiment" with the lives of our corals. It is already well known that the mortality rate for corals is somewhere around 80 to 90%, and that is the % that die between harvesting and our LFS. With this kind of ammunition I am suprised that these organizations haven't gotten this hobby banned already.

I hope that this explains a bit better what my motives are for taking this position with the "feed your SPS system more" statements. Myself along with others (very very few at first) spent countless hours on this board, as well as RC, discussing the real science behind what happens in a DSB environment over time. It was through these discussions that we were able to show that a DSB would fail if the advice of the DSB guy (Ron) was followed, and BTW, this whole "our corals are starving from a lack of organics, we shouldn't run skimmers, it's not natural, feed your tank heavy, etc...) was also the cry of this guy and a few other "experts".

Steve

[SPC]

Originally Posted by Geoff

BB behave differently than DSB's. it is very easy to overfeed a DSB. since the last several years people have been running DSB it is not surprising that the #1 cause of crashes is overfeeding.

IME it has always been the #1 cause in all of aquarium keeping, both fresh and salt. I know that most of us in the reef hobby like to think that we are better read and more knowledgeable than the average hobbyist, and overall I believe this to be true, but we still have basic human tendencies we must battle. I'll use myself as an example. I had kept FW tanks for many years when I got into the reefing hobby. The first thing I did before making this transition was to read books as well as the reef boards. I found out early on, through the reef boards, that listening to the LFS was the worst thing one could do (BTW, that LFS owner who had kept marine animals for 30 years told me that going with a DSB was a bad idea ). Anyway, the hot thing on the reef boards at this time was the "natural" approach and it seemed to me that the "expert" most reefers were following was Dr Ron. For me this whole natural approach was exactly what I was looking for (I had just come from planted FW tanks) what with all the big words being used by these couple of "experts", the idea that I could feed the system heavy because now I had critters in a DSB to fool around with too ( ...and real reefers love critters ), didn't need a skimmer, etc....

Anyway, the point I am trying to make here is that if we took a poll of the people that were in this hobby a couple of years ago, IMO most would say that they tried the "natural" approach in some way. Now remember, these older reefers were switching over from BB to DSB for the most part. Although IMO the main reason for the switch was due to an inability by them at this time to keep nitrates etc... under control, I also feel that this "natural" approach, along with it's "feed heavy" rule, is a huge hook for the type of person who gets into this hobby to begin with.

with a properly setup, high flow BB it is much more difficult to overfeed a tank.

I agree 100% here Geoff, but I strongly would question just how many have this. I know that I don't yet (enough current to keep detritus suspended but not so much as to blow my gorgs against the glass is where I'm at now), and I also know what kind of time I currently must put in each day trying to match input to output, and the fact that most people wouldn't dedicate their time to this.
Steve

[gwaco]

steve i was not doubting your knowledge or your questioning ,nor did i feel like you were flaming him . i just kind of felt that leonardo was taking a little beating for his comments , which he never stated that he had any type of scientific knowledge to back it up , i believe he was only stating his own personal observation, and he did this because of what he had learned on this forum .
i think one of the problems that happens is people under read post and center only on the parts that imediatly pertain to their problem. the one sentences that many seem to over look is "if your system can handle it " and "in a properly set-up system" and look for the miracle cure with things like " feed more " , " more or less light " , " skim wetter or drier " to which any one of them can make the positive change .
some times i find it hard to make suggestions to people because i don't want to be the one that is "construde" as the one that caused their tank to crash .
to me its like a mechanic trying to diagnose a problem with someones car over the phone . you can only offer several opinions , unless the car is in front of you . i wish i had an answer for rob , but i don't know how i can help . i have felt his frustration before as i'm sure we all have . i'm just glad leonardo , you and everyone else is here to help with problems like what rob has !

[Geoff]

this is actually my second time doing a BB tank. the first time was back in 92.

sorry, for being lazy, but what are your parameters again Rob? do you have a pH swing during the day?

this is a hard hobby to be in. many variables and many ways to adjust those variables. hard to help people without being there to see the system in person.

G~

[gwaco]

Originally Posted by Rob_Reef_Keeper

I cut the MH lighting back to 5 hours and the VHO actinics to 7. (They used to be 10 and 12)

Paramters.
CA 370 (dropped when the CO2 ran out raising that now)
Alk 8.6
PH 8.1-8.4
Temp 79
Mag 1100 (working on raising)
Sal 1.025
Nitrate, Amonia, Silicate, PO4 - 0

There is NO coraline on the rocks. NONE. There is some very light pink on the glass. I think this is telling a huge story to the problem. After cooking the LR and reasembling the tank a year ago next week there should be coraline on the LR. Its not even white - I mean bare rock.

gettin lazy in your old age ?

[Rob_Reef_Keeper]

PH 8.1- 8.4
CA 370 Was 420 (CO2 tank ran out)
Alk 8.6 (was 11.2 ^)
Mag 1100
Sal 1.025
Temp 70-80
Nitraye, Amon, Po4 - 0

[gwaco]

rob did you miss type your temp ? 10 degree swing is not good . other than that the only thing that looks low is magnesium .
is all change out water and evaporation water r.o. ?
and how old is the longest living fish ?

[gwaco]

i went and checked out your tank specs and all the mechanicals seem perfect .
what does it look like under the starboard (if you can see it from under your tank ) ?