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Substrate Free Tank Husbandry (Bare bottomed) This forum is for the discussion of the care and husbandry of substrate free tanks.


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Old 02-11-2006, 03:41 PM   #1
SeanT
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Skimming in a Barebottom tank.


Now is a good time as any to start breaking down the micro areas of running a barebottom tank.
And to lead us off, everybody's favorite (and coincidentally the most expensive) skimming.

Over the years I have owned quite a few skimmers, all of them except the last few were a waste of my money.
It ticks me off.
No real point there, just ranting.

My current skimmer and the last one I retired, before getting the current one, have by far been my favorites.
My last skimmer was a MyReef MR-2 Dual Beckett injector powered by an Iwaki 70.
It was a beast.
Before drilling my sump and powering it with the external Iwaki, I had it fed by a Mag-24, at that time I thought I was really skimming.
But there is nothing like a pressure rated pump to push Becketts.
Shortly after making the pump switch I realized why the pressure rated pumps are suggested.
Mind you that the Mag-24 puts out 2,000 gph @ 4' of head and the Iwaki 70 puts out 1,500 gph @ 4' head. See how numbers can be misleading.
With the Iwaki on I had to open my gate valve almost all the way, with the Mag 24 it was half way shut.

Anyway, I digress.

Unless you are using one of those massive CC skimmers, my personal belief is that the two best skimmers for the job are a pressure rated pump pushed Beckett or a Re-circulating needlewheel.
I have used both and cureently use a Deltec recirculating needlewheel.

Both of these skimmers have their Pro's and Con's.
These Pro's and Con's are from my personal experiences and I acknowledge that our experiences may differ.

The Pro's of the Becketts are their raw power.
In this area needlewheels don't compete yet.
With this power comes unparalleled ability to lift larger, solid, particles up the riser tube into the skimmer cup.

This Pro is also a Con of Becketts. With such power, they tend to coat the necks of themselves in sludge rather quickly, meaning a great deal of time cleaning them, unless you are a slacker.

The second Con of Becketts is their neediness. As the neck gets coated, even minorly, their production (bubble height) falls off rapidly.
So messing with air input and water output becomes a daily chore.

The final Con on my list is cost. You can purchase a good Beckett skimmer with a top quality pressure rated pump for about $800. Plus or minus depending on brands. And in our world, that ain't too bad.
The cost problem comes in with the cost of operating the skimmer.
You got to have that pump, there is no feeding a Beckett through an overflow. And though the cost of the pump isn't all that bad, the cost of running them is.
To properly power a dual Beckett skimmer in my area ($.09/kW) would cost $264.96 per year where a large needle wheel skimmer with two recirculating pumps costs $109.32 per year, a $155.64 per year savings on juice.

It isn't that simple though.
The number one Con of a good needlewheel skimmer is upfront costs.
Deltecs, Euroreefs, Bubblekings etc. can easily reach, and often exceed $1,000. One of the most popular Deltec models, the AP-702 costs $1,763.00. So to make up the difference between upfront costs and electrical usage would take between 5-6 years in this scenario.

One thing to remember about needlewheel skimmers is that they are not all created equally.
Type of acrylic used (cast -v extruded), type of recirculating pumps used, type and design of needlewheels used, air intake valves, output flow valves and more make up not only the ease of use, customability but also the performance of the skimmer.
I currently own a Deltec and I love it. Not for the name but for its skimming ability and its tweak-ability.
I have owned a Euro-reef in the past, and though satisfied, it is not in the league of my current skimmer by far.
Much like the Mag-24/Iwaki scenario.
The newer generation of needlewheels easily allow you to adjust bubble size giving the user a close to comparable ability to remove larger particulate matter like Beckett skimmers.

The one major area where needlewheels outshine Becketts is their plug-n-play, set-n-forget ability.
After breaking the skimmer in, setting, and tweaking it to your input flow, how wet/dry you want to skim etc., the only thing you need to do is empty the cup (or bucket if you get one with a drain) and clean the cup on ocassions.
There is no need to tweak outflow, air intake etc.
Where they may not be as powerful, it is nice to kick back and look at the tank sometimes instead of fiddling with it always.

Next, we will talk about skimmate.
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Old 02-11-2006, 03:59 PM   #2
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Sean-

If you had to start a tank over completely from scratch (BB of course) which skimmer would you go with, a beckett or a nw?
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Old 02-11-2006, 06:41 PM   #3
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Needlewheel.
For ease of use solely.
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Old 02-11-2006, 08:08 PM   #4
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I used both and had a horrible time trying to wet skim with the needlewheel. Every time I would leave the house the thing would overflow on me. The housing to the collection cup on the needlewheel wasn't air tight (or else it wouldn't work) so when it overflowed, all the crap water went right back in to my sump.

Not only that, but to wet skim with one I had to jack the water way up in the riser. What would happen is most of the water I was trying to skim would bypass the solid column of bubbles needed to particle skim. It was close to impossible to rid the tank of particles without a filtersock.

With a needlewheel there is a propeller chopping the water with a little air to create bubbles, this is much different than how the becket creates it's bubbles.

My becket isn't without fault. I hate the fact that when I stick my hand in the tank or feed my bubbles go down. They come back up, but It could take 10 - 20 min. Also the pump is loud, it's housed outside the tank so the noise is always there. Another thing I hate is the amount of electricity my pump uses.

Also every 2 days the cup walls need to be wiped down so I can see inside to see what my bubbles are doing. The neck stays very clean but I do find myself cracking the gate valve closed a little every few days, probably because of the slime build up. But by the time the height of the bubble column is so high that it effects the skimming, it's time to clean it anyway.

My skimmer/sump/pumps take up way too much space. I don't think it is possible to run a becket the way it should be under the stand of my 120.
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Old 02-11-2006, 08:12 PM   #5
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Here is my skimmer cup after 2 or 3 days. I get this phlegmmy solid stuff all over the walls.

I think it's all the particles in my tank collecting on the skimmer wall. This is also how I know if my skimmer is dialed in. If I don't see residue collecting on a clean cup wall instantly, something isn't right.

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Old 02-11-2006, 11:55 PM   #6
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On the same note does anyone know how often I should clean out my skimmer?

I don't think anything settles in the reaction box but it's pretty slimy.

Anyone know what that slime is?
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Old 02-11-2006, 11:59 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSchwag
Anyone know what that slime is?
Biofilm?

What was the needle wheel skimmer that was giving you the grief? Obviously not all needle wheel's are created equal
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Old 02-12-2006, 12:27 AM   #8
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Thats true. It was an asm g3. Probably a little small for a SPS 120.

I didn't feel like I could push a ton of water threw it. Maybe if I had the recirc mod on it.

Also maybe I didn't give it a fair chance. Actually come to think I it I probably don't have any right to even speak on that skimmer, I only had it for a month.. ..but I did obsess over while I had it .
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Old 02-12-2006, 12:31 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion76
Biofilm?
Like "Bacterial Detritus"?

Do you know if it needs to be cleaned out often or if it's high in po4?
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Old 02-12-2006, 05:23 AM   #10
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I am currently running an ER 6-2+ (sedra 5000 pump). For a 110 gal tank and 50 gal or so sump, my intial thought is that this might be underpowered for a BB tank.

Thoughts?

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Old 02-12-2006, 05:32 AM   #11
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SeanT you said
Quote:
The newer generation of needlewheels easily allow you to adjust bubble size giving the user a close to comparable ability to remove larger particulate matter like Beckett skimmers.
Could you please elabrate?

Is it better to have larger, or smaller bubbles to remove particulate deatris?

Thanks,
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Old 02-12-2006, 05:10 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiskey
Is it better to have larger, or smaller bubbles to remove particulate deatris?
A larger number of small bubbles is always better than a smaller number of large bubbles, because small bubbles provide much more air-water interface for particles and dissolved organics to latch onto.

I think the biggest factor in removing particulates is water flow and water level.

Large volume of water flowing through the skimmer with bubbles popping at the top of the skimmer neck will remove particulates fastest. Quit dwelling! Push ‘em to the top and pop them out!

With lower water flow and a big, dry foam heads, the particulates (which are heavy) will have too much time to settle back down into the skimmer and they’ll just bounce around in there. Or, latch onto the inside of the skimmer neck and have lots of time to decay. Or worse, have time to exit the skimmer altogether and drift back into the tank.
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Old 02-13-2006, 10:33 AM   #13
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Hey Whiskey, WM hit it pretty well on the head.
WHat I meant by larger versus smaller isn't really that much of a bifference.
On my skimmer if I turn the air valves down the neck looks like it is full of shaving cream.
The bubbles are so small it appears to be solid white.
This skimes well.
However, if I open one of the air valves a little bit, the bubbles priduced are slightly larger and I noticed that it can raise heavier particels.
I regularly find bits of algae, dead pods etc. in my cup.

Sean
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Old 02-13-2006, 01:25 PM   #14
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Thank-you, my skimmer cup is a little weird, so I can't have the bubbles at the top of the cup, but I made the change to run the air wide open a little while ago, and I wanted to make sure that was the right move, I think my bubbles are a little bigger now, but i might be imagining it.

If with my current method, and dailey blasting of LR/syphoning I can't get my nitrate to 0, I will be in the market for a new skimmer, could you give us a list of the ones you felt were a waist of money? Could you also give us a few of the ones you feel arn't? (I would like everyone to chime in in this too) Although you have a great skimmer, I don't think it would be right for my small tank.

Thanks,
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Old 02-13-2006, 01:41 PM   #15
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Sure thing.
Skimmers I have owned.
Seaclone - Junk.
Berlin (any model) - Junk.
Excalibur - Actually not bad for tanks 55 gallons and blow but not really able to wet skim effectively).
MyReef MR-1 - Not bad with appropriate pmp but too much fiddling.
MyReef MR-2 (same as MR-1).
MyReef MR-2 Dual - Great skimmer.
Eurorref CS 8-2 I am just not a big fan. Ok enough skimemr just overhyped a bit. I don't like anything that costs this much and still requires after purchase mods by consumer.
Deltec AP-702 - Great skimmer but expensive.

For your size tank (a 50 gallon if I remember correctly) there are several skimmers to choose from.
First, are you wanting to run a Beckett or Needlewheel.
Also how much room do you have?
And, of course, the budget you have for the skimmer.

Sean
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