is b.b. a passing fad ? a.k.a. the things you wanted to know ,but were afraid to ask

[Dagrape]

I am very interested in all of this. I am in the process of setting up my first large (90 gal) BB tank. I have NO experience with running a DSB so I won't have to worry as much about bringing habits and techniques from past experience into this tank.

I do currently have a 25 Gal which was SSB and no converted to BB and I havent had any issues what so ever.....but I have no SPS.

My set-up will consist of 90 gal BB, Bullet 1 skimmer driven by a Mag 12. I am going to light the tank with (2) 175W 10k XM bulbs with T5 actinic Supp. As the tank matures I will be upgrading to 250W MH and adding some more flow. I will try and keep you all posted of all successes and failures!

[SPC]

Originally Posted by Weatherman

When I removed it, it was like dredging sludge out of a polluted estuary.

Exactly, that's why a DSB is part of the "natural" approach, they act just like the DSB's in nature which have low flow and high nutrients.

Good thread Gary. I haven't been back on the boards long enough to really comment on which way hobbiest are going now. FWIW these are my thoughts on this BB, plenum, DSB, SSB, undergravel etc.... subject.

Many, many good reefers (on the boards that is) changed over to a DSB from one of the other methods listed above. The #1 reason IMO was that they couldn't keep nitrates (this was thought of at the time as the worst enemy) in check. The plenum seemed to help with this (my first tank was set up this way), but it was alot more trouble to set up initially and this method also limited the type of critters you could keep, in fact, this was one of the main reasons that I switched to a DSB. The other main reason was that the DSB just looked a heck of alot better, produced food for my corals and fish, and just plain was more natural than any of the other methods. But the reason that reallynailed it for me was that it seemed to me that all the experienced reefers were going with this method, and that an expert on substrates and the bugs that lived in them must know what he is talking about when he said that this was the way to go.

Anyway, IMO the biggest draw for new hobbyist to DSB's is still this whole "natural" approach, and lets face it, we all are in this hobby because we have a love for nature. Another draw is that it is cheaper, no need for a big poweful skimmer (in fact the original method called for no skimmer although Dr Ron has sense changed this part), and who needs a bunch of pumps, just let the DSB and all of it's natural critters dispose of the detritus.

One day I will probably have a small tank for seahorses or jawfish or gobie/shrimp, and this tank will have a DSB in it. This time going in I will realize that I will have to change the DSB out every couple of years (flush the toilet as Greg say's) as part of normal maintenance, and with a small tank this is possible. Having said that, one thing I will never have again is a large reef tank with any kind of substrate in it. Removing the DSB from my 180 was all the experience I needed with this, and a SSB is real trouble waiting to happen IMO.
Steve

[Rob_Reef_Keeper]

Good post - but explain bleaching corals nad lack of PE? I agree on everythign else though.

[zxcv123]

to be honest........... a shiny glass bottom is not exactly the most natural of looks either..........
and my corals have not been doing well.

[Dagrape]

Originally Posted by zxcv123

to be honest........... a shiny glass bottom is not exactly the most natural of looks either..........
and my corals have not been doing well.

I fully agree, but you can have BB with out having glass bottom. Starboard and FSB are the same thing with a 'natural' look.

[BuckWheat]

Originally Posted by Geoff

i am still trying to figure out my tank chemistry though still. i can not tell if i have learned to much and am overthinking things or somethings are different now than before.

G~

I'm guessing your overthinking it

Well maybe just find that the sb required more work than you remembered. I don't think having a super skimmer as everything but an efficient skimmer can go a long way. I think with bb if you have a set-up that keeps detritus in motion until it can go to the sump & just siphon it out whatever the skimmer leaves is the big thing of staying so clean. Some people like sand & I can't blame them, with the right husbandry many many ways of keeping a reef tank, these days we have the equipment & knowledge to keep many types!

[Spanky]

three points I picked up on:

BB is not the new fad, tanks/aquariums were run BB for decades before sand became popular. Sand was considered lethal with the exception of trying to maintain benthic organisms.

I don't see a lot of people changing back. Most people that are BB you don't hear from. They have other things to do with their time. But just like anything else, you do hear from people that have problems with things, that's what we're here for.

Probably the biggest problem with people changing over to BB tanks is what has already been beat into their heads from running DBS systems. Most, if not all, of the hobby literature is geared towards running tanks with sand beds. More Ca, more lighting, more alk, more carbon, more more more sell sell sell.
People have a hard time forgetting everything they think they know, and starting over with something totally new. As result, you end up with this hybrid method of running a BB system where people tend to use too much light, keep alk and Ca levels way too high, are now scared of a little detritus and don't feed enough.
....no matter how many times or how many ways you might try to explain it to them. And the hobby literature is slanted to explain things in a way that makes that method "feel" right, natural, and all goose bumpy wholesome. It does not explain how things really work so people know what they are really doing and why.

...

[Spanky]

Oh, did I mention all the crud equipment that the hobby sells as "state of the art". You can bet, the bigger the write up, they more hype, the closer to crud it is.

[Rob_Reef_Keeper]

Then someone neds to explain the basic parameters of a BB tank.

[Spanky]

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=66550

[BuckWheat]

In the time it took Spanky to write that I cleaned my BB tank

No kidding LOL! 180g of water, sump & skimmer!

[Spanky]

wanna race? LOL and I have over 20ft of glass to clean.

Just on equipment.

I have never seen a "off the rack" reef ready aquarium that was not made like some refugia. The overflow is way too short to get enough water over it and to the sump/skimmer.

Skimmers. Most are pure crud for BB systems. Even the "good" ones are still designed counter current to give dry foam. You can muck with them, but they are still not designed to really work.

Lights. The first thing I see people do is start pricing 400wMH with spiders! Those lights are designed to compensate for running dirty high nutrient tanks and burning off zoox. Why do you think your corals close up and get lighter in BB systems when you use them??

Sumps. Every sump I've ever seen looks like some refugia. They are not designed for high flow, too small for the tank, and no settling area in the middle.

Pumps. I see too many people that picked up on "BB tanks need high flow". Well whoopie. They add a bunch of powerheads to their tank and they have "high flow". It doesn't go anywhere, it doesn't get to the skimmer, .... they don't know what to do with that "high flow". They pack too much stuff in the tank and the overflow is not low enough to allow enough of that high flow to get to the skimmer. It's not high flow, it's fast turnover between the tank and the skimmer. Other wise they are just suspending a bunch of "crap" (literally) around in the water where it dissolves and releases crap faster.

[Rob_Reef_Keeper]

Well that link mostly covers the conversion and some basic tips. I have done that and I do not have a successful tank.

What else?

Maybe I need to get rid of the MH and put a NO light over it?

[Spanky]

Try doing it again. Something didn't work right.

I dropped my MH to two hours a day. Still got light colored corals. Finally just turned it off and went back to all VHO.

[Rob_Reef_Keeper]

Originally Posted by Spanky

Try doing it again. Something didn't work right.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - That is the best one all day. What recook the rock and get new starboard? What else can be done to redo it? Oh get new LR? I said that 2 years ago.

No way. If I redo it I will go back to my original method with some sand. BB is not the only way to do this. I listened to allot of you methods as you know and it failed so therefore it is NOT perfect.

I like the fact its easier to clean but that is about it so far. Remote DSB's - refugiums - bleh.