Uncontrolable ICH

[JennM]

I'd call it good luck. With maroons you likely have an E. quadricolor - while no anemone is "easy", it is the most forgiving of all the host anemones.

Do a search about anemones -- what you read will curl your hair.

However, having said that, a suitable anemone in a suitable tank is a sight to behold.... I sold a rose anemone to a client the other day (also E. quadricolor, but a bright RED morph) and I visited her and saw the animal yesterday -- Wowzers! Wish I'd brought my camera............

Jenn

[ShirleyM]

Hi there Mike,

There are several threads on this, and yes, you've been very lucky and most likely feeding properly and regularly, and also providing excellent lighting and water conditions. I'd love to see a pic of it! If you've had it this long, I see no reason for you to lose it now. They usually take a few weeks to a few months to die, but after a year, I'd say you are in good shape.

For every one that makes it, there are hundreds that don't. They are usually one of the first things a new saltwater aquarist wants to get, they are rarely taken care of properly, and they usually die.

Tell us how you are taking care of your - food, lighting, etc.

~ Shirley

[beachmutts]

Hmm,

I have have a very simple setup, which you can see from the "My Tank Specs" link below.

I use 36W of lighting. The anemone has always moved to situate itself towards the top of the tank and in a high flow area. (Right now it's under the return from the Red Sea Prizm protein skimmer).

For feeding, I mix up a very small amount of brine shrim with about 1/2 teaspoon of Marine Snow diluted with saltwater. I suck it all up into a turkey baster and then I squit the solution right onto the anemone (I don't actually insert the baster into the "mouth" of the anemone). When I do this the anemone "grabs" the brine shrimp (don't know where they go from there). After about 5 minutes its shrinks and swells up; which I've always attributed to the Marine Snow. I do this 2 or 3 times a week.

In order to do this I first have to drop some brine shrimp in another part of the tank to distract the clowns otherwise they gobbble it up too quick.

The Marine Snow has tradeoffs...I've never been able to get Nitrates below 5ppm and some of the other problems I've had might have to do with this.

I also add 1 drop of Lugol's per week and 1/2 teaspoon B-Ionic parts 1 & 2.

The other things I have observed is that the male clown sometimes drags large chunks of food stuff (like the moulting from a Cleaner Shrimp) or other various things into the anemone.

The maroon clowns are both very interactive with the anemone and the female will incessantly wiggle around in it when it starts to shrink (like she's trying to stimulate it).

I will definitely take pics. for ID purposes. It's not a fancy one. Just plain pink with a large flat inner surface area and lots of tentacles around the outside. When hungry, it can stretch to a diameter of ~8". Normally, it's not fully expanded like that.

Jeez, I've done something right...feels good

[ShirleyM]

Can't wait to see pics!!

5 ppm on the nitrates isn't bad.

~ Shirley

[David Grigor]

I am also a believer that ich in some form is present in all our tanks with fish. Regardless if you can see it or not.

If it was true that if all your fish were ich free for lenghty period of time ( that is if you could actually determine since admit it may not be visable yet still present ) and you never added a fish again then you would never have to worry about ich again.

Speaking from experience I know this not to be true. Without the addition of any fish for a long length of time, I usually get a small visable infestation of ich during the change of seasons from winter to summer and summer to winter where the tank temp fluctuations are the highest. Therefore I have come to the conclusion that visable signs or not it is always present where there is fish present....

[TerryB10]

OK Jenn,
You are certainly welcome to hang onto your opinion if you chose. I am just trying to provide some facts in the discussion. All fish do not carry ich. There have been plenty of studies taking samples from wild caught fish and some of them do have attached cysts but far from all of them. One of these samplings was done in Fuji were they found only one out of thirty six wild caught fish had it. I believe most of attached parasites were not visible to the naked eye (I am speaking of Cryptocaryon irritans specifically) and could only be seen by examining a scraping under a microscope.
I can also tell you that commercial fisheries will not agree with you. I do agree that the likelihood that fish are infected is higher in a LFS even though the parasites may not be visible to the naked eye. The number one reason, as I see it, that people so often have outbreaks in their displays is a failure to properly quarantine new acquisitions prior to adding them to the display. The vast majority of outbreaks in a display can and would be easily prevented if people would just quarantine.
You can import ich by adding water to your system from an infected tank, but this is far less likely to occur than from placing an infected fish into your tank. The parasite can only survive for 24 hours maximum in the free-swimming stage without finding a host fish. An infected fish can harbor the parasite for much longer.
A lot of the confusion here comes from not fully understanding the life cycle and all the modes of importation of ich.
Terry B

[ShirleyM]

Well, our Lemon Peel, who looked SO GOOD the past several days and swam around and ate and behaved very normally, was "not in the tank" last night. Upon inspection, he was flat on the bottom, under a rock shelf, white, and quite "gone". The crabs were eating what was left. Didn't see this coming at all.

[JennM]

Shirley - how long did you have the lemonpeel? Could it have been improperly caught?

Terry - there's a HUGE difference between fish caught from the wild and examined, and fish that make it all the way to the LFS. They don't just "beam over" from the ocean to the store - they are held in buckets on boats, if they are lucky they are in live wells but even at that - using your own statistics, and I believe you meant Fiji, not Fuji, suppose there are 40 fish in a bucket on a boat, being transported back to the island. Statistically, only ONE of those Fijian fish will be a carrier, maybe two. But in the stressful, hot confines of a bucket, it wouldn't take much to infect more fish, even if they don't show it right away. Then enter the holding tanks/pens where larger concentrations of fish are held until they are sold to the exporter, the problem increases, and the stress renders otherwise healthy fish vulerable to infestation. Some will succumb at this point, others will survive. The exporter may or may not run meds... if he/she does, all the better, a respite perhaps but the fish won't be there long enough to benefit from a full treatment -- get 'em in, ship 'em out, you see.

Next stop, LAX - importer. Good importers run meds too, but again, the likelihood of a fish sticking around the full 14 days to reap the benefit of a full treatment is slim to none. Next stop, LFS after one or two more days in a box.... if you think about it, they are lucky to survive all of that. By the time they arrive at the LFS they have been tanked a minimum of 3 times, most likely in denser concentrationst than you will see at most LFS. They have probably not been fed either, for a fish who excretes in his bag during the long flight will probably die. Fish are deliberately "cleaned out" to minimize the chances of this. The chances of infestation at all these points is much greater than would be found in the wild. High density, high stress, and often less than perfect water conditions, fluctuating temperatures -- it's harsh.

Terry I assume you are aware of all of this, but I've explained it for those who don't give a second thought to where the fish come from, and reiterate why I believe what I do. NO it's not scientific, I never said it was. It's based on my own personal observations, experiences and the experiences of clients of mine. I'm not a Ph.D and I don't play one on TV

I do believe quarantine is important and a good thing, and for the life of me if I could convince everybody who has $10K invested in their system, to invest in $250 for a q-tank, I'd be a happy camper, but ......

Jenn

[ShirleyM]

Jenn, I wondered if it might be cyanide poisoning. I swear I saw the slightest tinge of pinkish red on his topline during the ich outbreak, but very faint. Then it was gone. Nearly 5 yrs ago I had a yellow tang die like this under similar circumstances, finally recover, eat well, swim normally, then suddenly die. It had some pinkish-red streaks on its body that also disappeared before death. And thank you for your time in posting the explanations in detail above.

[JennM]

Hmmm well first off there is no way to "see" cyanide poisoning. A necropsy will sometimes show that the liver has turned to mush... but not too many folks are brave enough to cut one open, and even then fewer know what to look for. I have not seen a mushy liver myself but I have cut a few mystery death fish open, and not found anything obvious to the naked (untrained!!!!) eye.

Secondly, Yellow Tangs come from Hawaii. No cyanide is used there.

Red streaks could be indicative of a bacterial infection, but I've seen yellow fishes show a bit of red when they are stressed, I think their light colouring just makes their vascular system a bit easier to see.... but again, that's just ancedotal on my part, not scientifically based at all.

Depending where the lemonpeel was caught - if it was PI or Indo, then there is a good chance it was improperly caught. There are some real problems there, and some of us are trying to do something about it. Right now over on RC there is a fundraiser going on for netting material for Philippine net divers.... check it out if you're interested. I've sent in $50.

Jenn

[ShirleyM]

Thanks, Jenn!

[TerryB10]

Yes Jenn.
I am aware of all of that and have detailed the physiological. biochemical and behavioral consequences of stress in fish in many publications. As for experience, I have 30 years with marine aquariums and taken a special interest in fish disease and treatments for all of that time.

Shirley,
What you were probably seeing in the tang is called "Red Pest." It is caused by vibrio bacteria that are probably present in every cycled marine aquarium. This is particularly easy to spot with yellow tangs. When the fish is weakened by a poor diet, stress, or just too dense of a population of the bacteria it manifests as red blotches (streaks are more dangerous). It is often resolved with just a LARGE water change with well aged and aerated water.
Terry B

[beachmutts]

Taking a few steps back in this thread...

ShirleyM and JennM,
Here is my anemone.

[JennM]

Gorgeous

Jenn

[ShirleyM]

Oh yes! Beautiful Anemone!
And thanks for getting us back on track!