Ich Wars II

[skopco]

I figured I'd chime in on the ich wars since I just went through one and, well... lost.

I've had my tank (50 gal) set up for about 2 yrs and have never had to deal with ich, until this battle. I guess I got cocky since I've never had to deal with ich so when I bought my Hippo Tang from the LFS, I made the huge mistake of not keeping him in the quarantine tank and just put him right in the main tank.

When I say the ich, it was affecting the Hippo only. I quickly jumped on the boards and figured I'd try the garlic trick.

One note about the earlier post that fresh garlic is the best...I chopped some fresh garlic into very small pieces and mixed with brine shrimp at feeding time. The fish all ate the tiny pieces of fresh garlic while eating the shrimp.

The ick seemed to get better from the garlic until day 3. I woke up this morning to all 5 fish covered in ich (hippo, sailfin tang, tomato clown, mandarin goby, bi-color damsel). I decided to medicate and tried Kick Ich (claims to not harm inverts). I have a leather, some mushrooms, a pacific anemone and some yellow polyps. I used this stuff for the full 15 days it recommends and the ich hot no better. So I tore the tank down and used copper treatment in the hospital tank upstairs. So far, I lost a leather (don't think he liked the kick ich) and all fish but the sailfin tang. The sailfin actually looks like he will pull through, after having his scales rot to his flesh in spots and fins full of holes. Evey his eyes were completely covered in ich at the worst point. He's now eating well, clear of ich and healing fast.

Moral of the story... hospital tank with copper medication is the only thing that saved me at least one fish. Garlic may work as a preventative, but I really wish I would have acted immediately and got all fish into the hospital!

Some things I learned... feed garlic at least once or twice a month even when things are good (preventative). Always quarantine new fish! Get sick fish to the hospital tank as soon as possible. Its easiest to catch fish at night when they are sleeping.

[Alice]

Skopco;

Welcome to The Reef Tank; although I'm sure you would have liked to have posted better news. I'm sorry for the loss of your fishes.

The one time I had a real battle with ick was several years ago and no one was feeding garlic as a preventive or otherwise yet. I pulled all 8 of my fish out and QT'd them in two tanks for 6 weeks. Total pain, but I only lost one fish.

Knock on wood (or my head!) that I don't get to try it again.

Hope your sailfin pulls through.

Alice

[TerryB10]

Horge,
I don't think you will learn much that is new to you about garlic from reading my article. I find some merit in its use, but do not feel that it is a consistently reliable treatment for Cryptocaryonosis. Do I think it is a useful tool? Yes, it has value for clearing the intestinal track of excessive internal worms such as nemotodes. It does have properties that work as a mild antibiotic, anti-fungal, anti-viral and even anti-parasitic agent. However, no protcol has yet been establsihed for dosage, frequency of feeding, duration of therapy, etc., etc. Until the time comes when such a protocal has beenn establsihed using garlic to treat ich is a hit or miss proposition at best. We don't even know what amount may be giving the fish too much and what the consequences may be.
It does appear to increase feeding in many fish and I have not noticed any negative effects on fish that are fed garlic on a regular basis. My only real problem with using garlic is that it can give people false hope of an easy-convenient cure. In the meanwhile the infection may be getting worse leading to the demise of many animals that may have otherwise been saved if the aquarist had simply used a consistently reliable therapy such as hyposalinity to begin with.
I suggested that if someone wants to experiment with garlic as a treatment for ich that they do so responsibly. Treating an entire population with garlic without a backup plan ready to go would not fit my definition of responsible. I suggest more in the way of experimenting with just one fish in a seperate aquarium. Do I think that garlic can work under some circumstances? Yes, but I cannot recommend the use of garlic as a treatment for ich when there is a better treatment available.
I do use garlic on occasion, but not as the first line of defense for a full-blown ich infection. I use it in the foods as a preventative and in conjuntion with other treatments for bacterial infections, lymphocystis, internal worms, etc.
Terry B

[dark horge]

Thank you for that, Terry.

[reiple]

Still no definitive study on garlic. Hit and miss and generally under the holistic rather than scientific approach.

Is there a scientific approach to all this? That would be helpful. We all know the problem. If garlic won't work what will?

(btw can you consider Ich to the common cold? has anyone cured the common cold?)

[TerryB10]

Ich has little in common with a cold virus or any other virus for that matter. There are two proven reliable treatments for ich: Hyposalinity or copper. Both have scientific support.
Terry B

[aquaticsdeptleader]

ich isnt a virus, and you can "cure" ich, simply remove it from the system its in, here may be the one benfit to closed tank systems if you can elimante a parsite and not reintroduce it through new live stock (quarintine tank ) it will not come back.

[reiple]

The similarities between Ich and the common cold virus I made was between their nature. How they behave. That is a weakened fish/human is attacked (one by Ich the other by the virus). The common cold virus is everywhere. Can ich be also considered present in all reef systems?

Creating a reef devoid of the parasite/Ich in the first place is of course the most desirable. But should Ich be present how does one handle it?

Copper is more damaging than a cure in a reef system. Hyposalinity might be the answer. How to conduct/administer without damaging other creatures?

[aquaticsdeptleader]

ich like other parasites requires a host, remove the host and the parsite will die out, this is where a hosipital quarintine tank comes in, when you get your fish quarintine it in a hypo salinty tank i dont think in this case 1.006 is to low, i think research has shown that 1.019 is enough to kill the parasite but dont rember eaxatly ill look into it tonight, anyway if you quarintine the fish in hypo saline for 2 to 4 weeks before putting it in your display you should not get ich. on too other stuff shrimps, corals, rock ect it may be difficult to quarintine these by yourself but most lfs i ve seen keep the corals seprate from there fish so see if they will hold one for you in there tank as long as you support that store i dont see how this could be a problem. do these things and you should never get ich in your display elimanteing the need for garlic copper ect. in fact hypo salinty will kill most salt water parisites with the exclusion of marine velvet.

[TerryB10]

Ich is NOT present in all marine aquariums. It has to be introduced (usually by a failure to quarantine) and can be eliminated from a system. Using one of the two proven treatments can eliminated it or just leaving the tank fishless for 30 days to 6 weeks will cause the parasite to starve out for lack of a host. QUarantine all new fish for a minimum of three weeks and the odds are very high that you won't have ich in your display again. A specific gravity of 1.006 is too low. 1.009 is correct or more accurately measure the salinity (14ppt) rather than the specific gravity (1.009).
Terry B

[reiple]

Thanks TerryB10. I will go with starving an infected reef approach and quaratine. A combo of the hypo salinity and starving would be good? Will other inverts survive the hypo sal method (crabs, slugs, sponges, shrimps.....got them. afraid they might be damaged.) Should they be removed?

[DKKA]

Reipple,

The inverts you mentioned would not survive hypo. Do NOT try to do the hypo in your display tank if you have inverts, or even live rock.

If you remove the fish from the tank and do the hypo in a quarrantine tank, then the ick in the display tank will starve without hosts and there is no need to hypo the display tank.

hth,
Dan

[TerryB10]

Dan is correct.
Terry B

[Doug1]

OK I am the first to admit I dont know much about marine fish disease, but I have seen a few reef tanks and been exposed to more than a few over the years and VERY FEW have no fish in them and EVEN FEWER can truthfully claim all the corals and other organisms in them have never been exposed to fish or fishborne pathogens.
While it may not be technically true ICh doesnt exist in all marine systems I think the potential is there in most reef tanks, unless they have been deliberatly isolatedfrom other systems for long enough lengths of time to insure the die-off of the pathogen

[dark horge]

Well, sans imports of substrate or of saltwater that may inadvertently bring the parasite in with them, if a tank is fishless for three months or more, I'd call it "ich"-free.

However, point well taken, most systems experience an impressive amount of importation of suspect material, and this can explain the myth-perception that "ich" is ALWAYS present.




While we're at it, I guess we all have to keep repeating that hypo/osmo and copper are for use in a separate treatment tank.

As far as garlic is concerned, if you're committed to going through the trouble of hauling out all the fish and treating them outside of the display for weeks on end, then there's no need for the smelly herb, is there? The potential appeal to garlic ("ich"-wise) was always in-display treatment, though it would be better to evaluate its performance (or non-performance) in separate treatment tanks.



horge