Disease!

[Blake]

I have lost three fish. They were covered with very small white bumps along their bodies. They died and I waited about two weeks, now Rich the Tang is in the tank. Just today I noticed that he is starting to get covered with thoes white bumps! There is some small white particles floating in the water.

I think it's Velvet or Ick (or is it Itch). Anyway, here's my plan:
1. Remove Rich the Tang into a quarentien and dose with Copper. (Ya, no copper in the main tank - kill muh coral).
2. Buy a UV sterilizer to kill free floating pathogens.
3. Give Rick the Tang a month in the quarentien, with about 2 weeks of copper medication.
4. Give the main tank 1.5 months to let the parasite population die down.

Good plan or bad. I got to start dosing tomorrow when I get home so reply!

[naser]

with a uv you could also be killing coralline alge...

[Alice]

I can see that you did your research on the ich cycle judging from the fact that you want to keep your tang out of the display for 6 weeks. Too bad you didn't know that before you intoduced him.

This is a toughie, tangs don't tolerate small QT tanks very well. What kind of tang, how big and what size QT is he going into? Does he have a few spots or is he covered all over? The answers to these questions will help to figure out how you should proceed.

If he's otherwise healthy, fat and eating well, it might be easiest on him to give him a FW or formalin dip and leave him in the main display. Ramp up his feeding with lots of Nori, Selcon and live macro in the tank he can nibble on all day. You might want to start feeding him garlic as well. If he's severely affected to the point of not eating, you may want to take him out but if he's going into anything smaller than a 20 gallon QT, and that's if he's a small tang, I'm afraid the outcome might not be very good.

How long has he been in the tank? Many tangs will have an outbreak of ich when intoduced to a new tank, it's just the nature of the fish.

~Alice

[dark horge]

Hi Blake,

Keep in mind that copper is said to focus the brunt of its hostility against the free-swimming stage of Cryptocaryon irritans ("Marine Ich"). A UV sterilizer may be unnecessary!

After Moe (1982, 1992) : During its stay in the treatment tank you can take Rick the Tang out for a formalin bath, every other day for 30 minutes (1 ml formalin per US gallon of saltwater, aerated an hour prior to use). The 'bathwater' is naturally discarded. Total of six baths.

During its stay in the treatment tank, food laced with soluble garlic (or indeed food in the form of small bits of raw garlic itself) can be fed to the fish: this kicks out any "ich" latched onto or burrowed into the fish's body, so that whatever medication you're using (copper, etc.) can get at the protozoan beasties more easily.

And, obviously the display has to be entirely fish-free throughout the waiting period. Authors' recommendations range from a low two weeks, to a high end of 72 days. The six week period seems the most practical.

HOWEVER I agree with Alice that tangs are not good candidates for incarceration in a small tank. The stress induced often outweigns the benefit of medication. If I HAD to treat in the display, I'd try feeding with garlic- and selcon-reinforced food: the garlic can keep the parasites off the fish even though the parasites remain in-tank, in effect starving them of a host. Of course, you have to make sure ALL fish present chow down garlic.

Good luck!

horge, dark

[ 02-27-2001: Message edited by: dark horge ]

[Spanky]

Blake, Just a couple of quick questions.
What where the other fish that died?
How long did you have them?
What was the time line from the time you first noticed symptoms, until the fish died?
How were your water prams at the time?
Jerel

[tdwyatt]

Blake:

Please keep in mind that the quarintine tank is only temporary: Go to Wal-mart (if you are in the US) buy a BIG rubbarmaid container (square, round, so long as it is about 50 gal) and use that as your quarintine tank. Try to use a sponge filter if you can that has been in your sump for a while ( i keep one in my sump just for this, make sure to throw it away when finished, a powerhead in the sump just for the sponge filter can easily be transferred to the quarintine tank for circulation, and the bacteria on the sponge will be ready to mineralize ammonia right away) Do your treatments, then when the fish is back in the regular tank and has been fully recovered for a few weeks, you can break down the hospital tank and put it away (make sure to start another sponge in the sump)

[Spanky]

Blake,
You're getting some great advise here, assuming it's really ick.
However, there's something bothering me.

About two months ago, a particularly nasty strain of Brooklynella hit the wholesalers on the west coast. Brooklynella is very hard for most people to tell from ick and copper is not the treatment of choice for this. One way of knowing, Ick usually doesn't move fast, Brook does.

Jerel

[Doug1]

Would feeding garlic laced food and using a UV on the Q tank, perhaps in conjuction with the formalin dips be better than trating the fish with long term copper exposure?

Would the Garlic/UV be enough if the fish was eating normally, forgoing the formalin dips to reduce stress?

Would UV on the display tank accelerate the demise of the pathagen in the display tank or do the six week cycle still need to be observed?

Would using one of the medicated foods(broad spec antibiotic based I assume) be of any value in preventing secondary infections? Or will this just be a waste of time, possibily leading to more disease resistant pathogens with no apperent benefit?

Not that I am pursuing any of these actions, just trying to gather data on treatment for those who prefer not use copper treatments

[Spanky]

Ok, now this is just my opinion. If you ask 20 people about this you'll get 40 different answers.

Would feeding garlic laced food and using a UV on the Q tank, perhaps in conjuction with the formalin dips be better than trating the fish with long term copper exposure?

Definitely, copper doesn't have the success ratio that most think and is not the treatment of choice for all paracites. Jury is still out on garlic.

Would the Garlic/UV be enough if the fish was eating normally, forgoing the formalin dips to reduce stress?

Unless it's some advanced stage, right.

Would UV on the display tank accelerate the demise of the pathagen in the display tank or do the six week cycle still need to be observed

By eliminating the host organism, lowering the ratio of free swimming, yes.

Would using one of the medicated foods(broad spec antibiotic based I assume) be of any value in preventing secondary infections? Or will this just be a waste of time, possibily leading to more disease resistant pathogens with no apperent benefit?

Don't have a clue. I really have no idea what's in OTC products.

Now, don't hang me out to dry on this, it's just my opinion.
Jerel

[Doug1]

Thanks, let me ask you this. Given your education and training what would you recommend for ich and brooklynella assuming to separate infestations and reasonable cetainty of diagnosis, TIA

[Spanky]

We very rarely resort to "chemical warfare" for many reasons. Dips have limited success too, depends on how slimy/unslimy (medical term ) the fish is. Also, has no effect on injested. Heavy metals/chemicals can have residual effects that would be counter productive.
Tell you what, this is what we usually do.
Isolate the fish in quarantine. Properly sized UV and flow rates, 4-5 tank volumes per hour min. On a bare 20 gal tank that's only about 100gph, not much. Usually the first week the fish will be moved to a clean tank every day. After that, it's just wait, test, and see. On more prone fish, about 3-4 weeks.
On aside, one of the local collectors has a way of doing it to. I haven't had time to check this out but it seems to work for him.
First dip, put fish in plastic bag with a OTC product I think called Quick Dip. I'll check on it. Add Amquel. Fill with oxygen. Float for 24hrs in the dark. Presto. I couldn't believe it. He brought 6 fish in to be tested and they were all clean. Now keep in mind, these fish went - reef,boat,dip,bag.
So they were relatively clean to begin with.
HTH
Jerel

BTW, Where were you guys when the earth shook. Everybody OK?

[Alice]

Jerel;

I would be interested in the Quick DIp, or whatever the over the counter product is called. I work in a small shop and there isn't much room for QT'ing fish. Especially if we get a shipment in with several fish that are effected. Luckily, we seem to have a pretty low rate of disease but sometimes we lose that battle.

We were rockin' and rollin' here for a bit during the quake but no damage in Portland other than a few broken windows last I heard. Our neighbors to the north got hit fairly hard

~Alice

[Spanky]

Alice, whew! Glad you're ok.

I'll probably see Tom at the Reef Relief meeting tonight. I'll try to get the details for you then.

Jerel