Death Tank Blues

[OodleyBoodely]

Well, it seems my attempts at reefing are just an excuse to kill fish! I purchased a Kole tang and a
Lawnmower blenny a couple weeks ago in hopes that they would help control the massive algae problem in
my tank. Both appeared healthy. I looked them over very carefully both at the store and once I got them
home and for about a week everything seemed great (except they didn't eat the algea I bought them for).

A week later the tang began scratching against rocks and I feared it might be ick, so, I ran to the LFS and
bought some 'reef-safe' ick meds (Rubyreef Kick-Ick) and began dosing. The tang continued to get worse, its skin
took on a filmy, spotted look. I was not sure if it was ick or perhaps velvet, so I set up my 10 gal Q-tank
and dosed it with coppersafe, formalin, and Melifix. By this time, my two pairs of clownfish were also
showing symptoms, so they, the tang, and the algea blenny went into quarantine. The next day the tang was
covered in spots and breathing hard; it died that evening. I have since lost my maroon clown pair and the
oscellaris clowns are probably not going to make it either. In the main tank, (55g), I continued use of the
Kick-ick according to directions but now, one firefish is acting sick, too. I did a complete water test of the
55 last night and everything tested good, 0-ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and phosphates (surprizing-I usually
show some nitrate and phosphate due to using tap water). Specific gravity, alkalinity, and calcium were well
within limits.

Before this outbreak, I had a cirolanid isopod outbreak that resulted in a dead oscellaris male. The quarantine of all the fish due to the isopods resulted in my two blue gudgeons succumbing to stress-induced(IMO) internal parasites. I still have one but it is blind and not eating.

Prior to that, was my first ick outbreak when I lost all but 3 fish. I lost 4 that time, including my two favorites, a lemonpeel angel and a long-nosed hawk.

Between these episodes, the tank appeared to be doing well. Corals were multiplying and growing well. Other livestock appeared healthy and well adjusted, too. I'm not trying to overstock or anything, but, one scooter, 2 firefish, and 2 gudgeons hardly crowd a 55 with only a few corals and snails. Why can't I keep fish alive? I've been keeping reef tanks for over two years now, first a 10g, then since last Dec. a 55g. I've only been able to keep one fish alive all that time, my very first sw fish, the scooter blenny. I'm beginning to get very discouraged.

[Spanky]

I'll help you with a q-tank and meds this afternoon.

[Hermit]

Oodley,

I know the feeling, I'm not know as Fish Khan for nothing. I do feel for your loss.

Unfortunately, all I can offer is my sympathies.

Though, come to think of it, is your tank experiencing any dramatic swings? temp, Ph? How 'bout your gas exchange?

Just throwing out some ideas. Earlier this year I had some sort of outbreak with a Clark's clown and my hippo tang. I used FW baths (yeah, it's a little strange giving a fish a bath). It took two for the tang, but both survived and are flourishing now.

Good luck

[OodleyBoodely]

thanks Hermit. I use fw dips, too. If a fish looks good enough when I buy it, that is all it usually gets befor going into the main tank. The ph and alkalinity don't seem to vary much. I usually add a couple teaspoons of marine buffer every two weeks and calcium when it drops below 420ppm. My tank is lightly stocked with corals and does not go through the calcium very fast. My temps do fluctuate about 3-4 degrees, drops when lights are off. Other wise, the tank seems pretty stable. I do use tap water which sometimes raises the phosphates and nitrates to low levels, but, at my last test those tested at 0.

[Hermit]

Frustration!

I'm out of ideas. I don't think the increase in phosphate of nitrate would cause any problems, as my tap water does the same thing.

Rather than doing FW dips in the beginning, and stressing the fish even more, have your tried FW dips after they start showing the disease symptoms?

Troubleshooting is such a pain!

[Brooke]

Hey Oodley-

Your situation sounds very typical..this happens to a lot of people. (hence all the set-ups for sale in the newspaper). I'll leave the meds and treatment up to Jerel, because I don't use them. I recently treated a sick tang with garlic, selcon, and two neon gobies to clean him. He has recovered 100%, but this is a much different situation than you are in.

First things first- You have to get that tap water tested if you are going to use it. It is probably full of things your corals, and fish will not like. Start using RO/DI water. This should also help you resolve your algae problems. Next, as Hermit mentioned is gas exchange. Do you have good surface agitation?

I would not restock with any fish for awhile until you can get your algae problem under control. Using good source water, harvesting, water changes, and minimally feeding the tank should all help. You might want to clean off your rocks and stagnant areas with a turkey baster and get as much detritus out as you can.

From all the posts I've read throughout the years, it seems that using fish to eat algae is hit or miss at best. Our tanks are just starting to get through their algae stages when most of us start stuffing them with fish and excess nutrients. (notice I said "us" )

Hopefully, you can get to the source of the problems, and when your algae starts to subside, you can start restocking your tank.

HTH-
Brooke

[JennM]

STRESS. Stress most often causes Ich outbreaks, IMO. A temp fluctutation of 4 degrees daily is significant and could be part of the problem. At best it's aggrivating the problem. Set a heater to keep it constant. IMO you are better to be few degrees warm ALL the time, than to go up and down from "normal (77)" to warm and back again.

I thought Formalin was to be used for dips/baths, and not in the tank? Am I mistaken?

Jenn

[Spanky]

Hey Oodley,

>I've only been able to keep one fish alive all that time, my very first sw fish, the scooter blenny.<

Is he in the tank now? If so you have a carrier. As long as there is a host in the system you'll have parasites.

>its skin took on a filmy, spotted look.<

Unfortunately you could be describing Brooklynella. Common on wild caught clowns, and it's the time of the year. Also moves faster than most people can catch it. At the very least, Amyloodinium (which also moves fast). Neither are that responsive to fresh water dips (which are highly overrated).

These parasites/diseases are sometimes hard to identify, and impossible to treat in a reef tank. Here's my suggestion:

15/20gal tank
heater
two sponge filters (so you can swap out) power head
spare PVC pipe pieces (hiding places)
formalin and malachite green (combined and separate)
buffer
Amquel
large bucket of fresh salt water (ph, temp, alk, and salinity same)

Some fish are sensitive to M. green, but yours are not. If you notice vertigo, use the Amquel, it will remove enough of the metal (M green).
Always quarantine all new fish.

In your advanced stage, lowering the temp and slowing down the life cycle of the parasite will buy you some time.

To the quarantine tank, add two drops of the formalin/M green solution (quick cure is one) and aerate heavy for about 30min. Put the fish to be treated in the tank and keep in total darkness for 24 hrs. (you can peek it's ok).
Test the water for ammonia after 24hrs. Use amquel if needed.
Replace 50% of the water and treat with one (1) drop per gallon. Keep in darkness for another 24hrs.
After two treatments, theoretically the fish should be clean. You will still need to quarantine and observe for another couple of weeks for other problems. This is a good time to feed garlic, boosts immune system and expels a lot of internal parasites.

Mostly this is about catching a fish before it is in advanced stages of either of these parasites.

HTH
Jerel

>dosed it with coppersafe, formalin, and Melifix.<

Copper is overrated too. Identify the cause and go after it.

[OodleyBoodely]

Wow, these are some good replies!

Hermit, <FRUSTRATION> Yes-extremely so! I've tried fw dips both ways, but, I'm still undecided as to their effectiveness.

Brooke, I have to agree with you about the 'hit or miss' with algae eatters. At least my experience with them falls into that scenario. I'm not planning on more fish for awhile. Tried using them to cure my tank problems and it didn't work. I want to get this under control again first, befor adding new fish. I am considering buying RO water for my water changes. I will add another power head to my original two for extra current at the surface. The Skilter also provides a lot of surface current. I have been keeping the two original PHs closer to the middle level of the tank. Would it be better for gas exchange to move them back near the surface?

JennM, I don't use Formalin in the main tank, only in the quarantine tank. I understand what you are saying about the temp fluctuations being a possible source of stress. I keep the tank set at 80. The VHOs are elevated 4" above the surface with no canopy (yet), but, by the end of the day the temps will rise a couple degrees. Other than a chiller, which I can't afford, I don't know how to maintain perfectly stable temps.

Landscaper, I've looked the scooter over very carefully and his skin appears clean and unblemished. If he (or the other three in the tank) are 'carriers', would quarantine and medicating clear them as sources of reinfection? I am still treating the main tank with the KickIck, but, as you suggest, this may not be just ick. My pair of Oscellaris clowns are still alive in the Q-tank, but don't look good. The female hangs tail down, will not eat, and her skin appears blistered/burned and filmy. There are no ick spots on her like on the tang. The male appears ok and is eating well. I have a couple malachite/formalin meds left over from my freshwater days, that I can use instead of the copper/formalin/melafix. I already use the same setup for a Q-tank, except I have a 10, and use a plastic ornament for the fish to hide in. I keep cultured sponges going in my refugium and Skilter that can be swapped out for use in the Q.

Thankyou everyone for your helpful and informative replies. You all really go to a lot of effort to help, and I really appreciate it. I cruise a few of the other boards, too, but more and more I find I come here when I have a problem or question. You are the best!

[Spanky]

If he (or the other three in the tank) are 'carriers', would quarantine and medicating clear them as sources of reinfection?

You bet, that's the whole idea.

The female hangs tail down, will not eat, and her skin appears blistered/burned and filmy.

Brooklynella

Either way, the formalin/M green will take care of it all. Don't forget to keep them in the dark while treating.

You're going to have to go fishless in the tank for a while to starve out the parasites. I would wait a couple of months.

Jerel

[OodleyBoodely]

Thanks Landscaper. I'll catch the four tonight and get them in the quarantine tank. One problem, my mandarin will not eat prepared or frozen foods, only the pods in the main tank. Any suggestions on how best to treat her? There are some pods on the glass of the refugium I can net for her, but, I don't think the numbers will be sufficient to make capture by me possible for more than a few days.

[ladyballplayer]

Well I have the opposite problem. My fish are doing great, its the corals that I have problems with. I even decided to stick with all softies and I still have issues.

GRRRRRRR

[OodleyBoodely]

Seems like it's one thing after another, and, just when you think things are going good - BLAMM! something else socks you in the gut! I find that I'm not quite ready to throw in the towl (or tank) yet, however. This hobby must attract a certain degree of lunacy/idiocy/whatever, or, why else do we keep trying in the face of so many problems?

Here's to better reefing ahead!

[Kranny]

This kind of outbreak is what makes my toes curl up in fear. I had one like this in my 55g tank, I lost 5 out of 7 fish to a huge ick outbreak. I live in an apartment so a quarentine tank is not an option for me. What was really strange in my case was the fact that everytime I tried to use activated carbon in my wet/dry filter I would have an ick outbreak a few days later. It got to the point where I always had to maintane a low level of copper in my tank at all times to ward off ick outbreaks. I'm hoping that investing in a high quality UV filter will solve my problem of ick in my new set up.

[eaglelox]

there is something to be said about damsles.seems to be the only fish i can keep alive. jus kidding kind of. was the only fish to make it through my first bout of ich.i havent added any new fish lately. but soon i might. get back on the horse and ride. just adding stuf slowly has been working for me.

Steve

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