amyloodinium, marine velvet, brookynella?

[salt creepette]

ok he's still hanging in there, but i fear this is the last time i will be able to say that. im very sad. i fwd'ed them both this evening. his color is very pale now. he is just barely keeping himself upright on the bottom of the tank. 150 respirations per minute. She's doing fine, still eating.

moved the inverts and algae to my last 10 gallon tank with airstones, heater and light.

If you pray, say a little prayer for Scarlet and Rhett, that Rhett pulls through. Poor Scarlet.

[salt creepette]

wow, rhett is still alive this morning! will keep you posted. I get to dose with copper again today. Scarlet is still fine....

[salt creepette]

rhett (1/2 of my pair of percula clowns) has since passed on. Im still trying to Save Scarlet!

Here is the current situation:

she is in a 10 hospital tank, SG 1.021, ph 8.2, temp 82, ammonia 0. There is cupramine nonchelated copper in the tank, added twice two days apart, 1 ml each time per the instructions. I did do a small water change of 2 gallons the other day and re-added 1 ml of copper. The red sea copper test kit is apparently not compatible with my brand of copper, as it tests at 0 and the LFS tested it at .1. I am going today to get a seachem test kit so I can monitor copper levels.

Rhett, the male clown, showed signs of sickness on the 23rd. Scarlet was breathing normally until yesterday when she began to breathe faster. This am she had a lot of fine white 'dust' on her, so I freshwater dipped her.

after reading various articles and book excerpts on the treatment of oodinium, this is what I want to do. If youve had any experience/success treating oodinium, please tell me if you see any glaring outpoints with this plan. (I want to treat aggressively but I dont want to stress Scarlet too much. She is a trouper and has been very strong up to this point. She has been eating like a piglet until this am, when she only picked at food, but still showed interest.)

since the bottom of the tank looks dirty and probably has cysts in it, i want to siphon out about 2 gallons. I want to add RO water slowly until the SG reads 1.012.

I want to also keep the level of copper at .15 to .20

I believe the temp at 82 is good where its at.

There is a whisper power filter with cartridge only (no carbon) on the tank to filter out particulate matter, but I fear that may just be a catch-all for oodinium cysts. Should I take it out?

Does anybody have any other suggestions? thanks.

[Toadfish]

I would not use copper and hyposalinity in tandem...this is overkill. Copper needs to season and find a balance over time to be effective. When I first got into the hobby almost 3 years ago I had a bad bought with Oodinuium. I tried everything to no avail. What worked best was allowing my fish to stay in a small tank with pristine water quality. for the first 3 days, I would remove my fish and dip them in hydroplex, (which I have mentioned before and swear by). In 2 weeks the Oodinium was gone, my fish were healthy again. In your case I would lower the temp as well. Parasites seem to thrive in higher temperatures. You should slowly bring it to 77 or 78 degrees. The big decision you have is hyposalinity or copper. I would tend to not use either one. Strong water quality and a UV sterlizer is the route to go. Even though we have the urge to save everything, some animals that are highly suceptable to these scourges will constantly have boughts of ich and to test your animal, it is best to allow it to fight it off or die. I also say this because if this fish gets over the oodinium(marine velvet) by way of copper or hyposalinity, then you are doing a diservice to it's immune system. Allow your fish to fight it and if it survives then the next time it gets ich or oodinium, it has a better chance in your main system. Do something to bring the numbers of the free swimming parasite down, but also allow the fish to fight the scourge.


BTW, My fish, in particular my hippo tang gets a few spots from time to time. But he is always able to fight it off. Think long term rather than short term. Worse case is that the fish dies and you have to start over. Even worse will be if the treatment regiment prolongs the fishes life but due to gill damage or a weakened immune system, it's quality of life quickly deteriorates and eventually the fish dies anyway, after all of the stress you incurr.

[salt creepette]

(sigh.)

thanks toadfish. I just talked to a guy at one of my lfs and he said that is what he would do too, basically just keep the water quality really good and let the fish fight it off, feeding it well with garlic or vitamin soaked food.

I will leave what copper i have in there for the next day or so and then do a 30% water change, siphoning the crud off the bottom and just feeding her really well. At least that will give her a good fighting chance. I really dont want to lose her, but you are right, if I give her the right enviroment so she can do her best to heal, that is the fairest thing to do. I will keep you posted (as always)

oh by the way, once I do the water change and put some carbon or a poly filter in there to pull out the carbon, should I put my cleaner shrimp and/or peppermint shrimp in there to help her out, or is that too risky for the shrimps?

[salt creepette]

oh yeah, the thought on keeping the temp at 82 was to speed the lifecycle of the parasite up to hopefully get rid of it sooner. even so, I should still lower the temp?

[Toadfish]

Yeah, lower the temp so that the parasite cannot thrive, speeding up the lifecycle just creates more of them. I would not put any inverts in there because of the copper treatment...way to risky. If you have another tank going, try putting the fish in there along with the cleaners if you wish. Although, cleaner shrimp will have minimal impact now on your fish, in the long run they will be beneficial. Try calling the LFS back and ask them if they will rent you a UV sterilizer.

[salt creepette]

ok on lowering the temp of the tank.

are you suggesting putting my fish that has oodinium in with my other fish?? I really dont want to risk it spreading to the main tank. the clown was being kept seperately anyways in the 10gallon, completely seperate from my 30 gallon which cant really take another fish anyways, theres 8 in there now (albeit small).

[Toadfish]

No, just into a tank with stable conditions, no copper (for the shrimps sake) and maybe a UV sterilizer if you can get your hands on one. You cannot put the shrimp into a copper contaminated system.

[salt creepette]

ok that sounds good, thanks.

[CAT]

It's not likely the the clown will go to the shrimp. I've never seen my small fish allow the shrimp to clean them. Best customer for my cleaner was my hippo tang.

Still, clowns are pretty tough little guys. She may pull through yet.

[TerryB10]

Do you realize that Seachem recommends a dosage of .5ppm for Cupramine? If you are using .15ppm to .2ppm then the dose is way to low. The correct dose varies with the product used. The copper level should be checked twice a day and adjusted as necessary to keep the level right. Copper should only be used in a quarantine tank without rock or substrate.

I don’t know why you would use copper anyway, unless you haven’t heard of how to use hyposalinity. The correct salinity is 16ppt or less. I recommend 14ppt so you have a little margin for error. Do not mix copper with hyposalinity. You need a lab grade, quality, large GLASS floating hydrometer or a refractometer to measure the salinity. Don’t confuse the correct salinity (14ppt) with the specific gravity (about 1.009). Check the pH daily when using hypo and add a buffer as needed.
Terry B

[salt creepette]

yeah i was reading that about the dosage. anyhow, i was using it as per the instructions. i decided to go the natural route with nice clean water and good food and hope she pulls through. nobody in town has a copper test kit compatible with cupramine anyways, i would have to order it off the net. and i didnt feel like going to the lfs every day for a single copper test. the specific gravity is 1.021 right about now. not exactly hypo, i understand. like i said, im just going to give her good water quality in her little hospital tank and hope she pulls through.

it would be helpful to know a timeframe or situation when it would be safe to put her with other fish in the main tank, though, any thoughts are appreciated. its so hard to see the oodinium being that its so small. I would assume that two to three weeks after she appears to be completely normal (respiration, eating, looks, etc) would be a safe bet, let me know what you think.
thanks everyone for your help!

[TerryB10]

Good luck going without treating the fish. They may recover, but generally they do not unless you intervene with an effective treatment. It doesn't sound like you used Cupramine at the correct dose so it is no surprise that it hasn't worked.
Terry B