sandsifting stars

[Jerham]

Owner of LFS tells me sandsifting stars are fine for DSB. I've read that they are harmful. He tells me not to believe everything I read. I tell him I read it online. He tells me not to believe everything I read online. Do I trust his word or stop patronizing his establishment?

[Harpo]

Sounds like he just wants your $. Sifting stars will deplete your bed of what ever is living in it. You will go from LS to DS (dead sand).

Harpo

[JennM]

I'm comparing apples to oranges a bit here, but I carry sand stars in my shop. They are in my reef system with corals and other inverts. I run a refugium on that system, and it is TEEMING with creatures.

I realize that this not the same situation as in a private tank, but my reef system is about 330 gallons of shallow tank ( 3 x 7 1/2' long tanks) and at any given time I can have 6-12 sand stars as well as cukes, horseshoe crabs and other animals reputed to devour all the life out of a sandbed, and I still have thousands of pods and mysids visible to the naked eye, running around in my sand. I don't use deep sand, just shallow layer, but it's teeming with life.

Unless the tank is very small, I can't see one star eliminating all the sand fauna. Besides, some of those pods and things also live in the rocks, and the star will not go there.

JMO

Jenn

[Harpo]

I think size does make a differance.

I have not ever had a horse shoe crab, but read in Aquarium magazine, that it was listed as one of the things that should not ever be purchased. Don't know why, just read that

Jen, I live in S. Cal. and have been having a hell of a time trying to locate a CROSSHATCH trigger. Is it really that hard to find in the trade? We had one, once before but died when our tank broke. Have been trying to find one since. As an owner, are you able to get them easily?


Harpo

[Jimbo]

I've seen many many people say not to put them in your tank. That said, depending on the size of your tank, it's possible that a sifting star could be beneficial, by moving some of the sand critters around in the sand bed and distributing food. After looking through several links it does not look like they will travel under the rocks in SB, so this would be a safe heaven for some of the creatures. I also saw no studies that substantiated the depletion of the SB. In nature many creatures have natural predators and these predators are beneficial by removing diseased individuals and promoting the more hardy.

Maybe I just want a sifting star to make the top of my sand nice and white But believe in my small tank 40g that 2.5-3" star would eat everything it could and still be hungry. They will also eat small tubeworms. Since there are other alternatives to stirring the sand that are not all that dangerious to SB infauna. I don't believe there is any reason for me to take that chance.

Here's a pic that I found of one.

~Jimbo

[JennM]

Originally posted by Harpo
I think size does make a differance.

I have not ever had a horse shoe crab, but read in Aquarium magazine, that it was listed as one of the things that should not ever be purchased. Don't know why, just read that

Horseshoes CAN get quite large. I put one in a tank I maintain, 200 g, to keep the sand turned over and clean and I can't say as I've noticed him really grow significantly in almost a year. They can grow to the size of a dinner plate. Luckily if that happens, I do have a customer with a couple of 1200 gallon tanks who is always looking for BIG things, so I do have an exit plan for any such creatures that get to mammoth size.

Originally posted by Harpo
Jen, I live in S. Cal. and have been having a hell of a time trying to locate a CROSSHATCH trigger. Is it really that hard to find in the trade? We had one, once before but died when our tank broke. Have been trying to find one since. As an owner, are you able to get them easily?


Harpo [/b]

They are ridiculously expensive, but I see them on stock lists all the time. Male is more expensive than female, but you can also "save" $$ buying them as a pair -- usually on the stock lists I see they have either one or the other AND a pair. I've never ordered them, I wouldn't order such a high dollar fish unless somebody wanted it, but I do see them listed quite regularly.

As to sand stars, I get the feeling that "somebody" along the guru line said they were a bad thing, and everybody jumped on the bandwagon. I've not seen or heard anything bad about them, when somebody inquires, I ask about the type of substrate they have (crushed coral is not good for these creatures), and if they have sand, I ask if it's deep or shallow, and if it's deep, I share that I have "read" that they aren't recommended, but admit that I don't know why, based on the amount of sand fauna present in my system, I do not see any depletion (or if they do deplete the fauna, I'd otherwise be overrun )

Jenn

[ShirleyM]

As an alternative to sand stars, what do you all think about Tiger tail Cukes? We used to have them, but when one went over the overflow and clogged the external return pump, ejecting its toxins and killing ALL but three of our fish two years ago, we never got another. Since, I've heard the likelihood of that happening again is slim to none, and that the toxin didn't kill the fish, but the lack of O2 killed them (the pump couldn't run). The deaths occurred within a 2.5 hr time period...tank was running fine at 7:00 a.m., but when our son got up at 9:30 (teacher work day, kids at home) he saw the full sump, low water, no pump action, and dead fish. VERY SAD DAY INDEED.

We have NOTHING right now to work our sand bed. The Tiger Tails used to do such a good job. What do you think? (yes, we have snails/crabs) We need something, but not something to eat the life in the sand.

4-1/2 yurs ago:
Troy put a sand sifting star in his 30-gal, but traded it in after a couple months due to all the online advice already mentioned above...it was a neat star, but ate the life we were trying to establish in the sand. Maybe in a large, well-established system? The cukes did a better job of turning the sand over. The star was more like a submarine -- up, down, up, down. Not much distrubance of sand.

Shirley

[Harpo]

Thanks Jenn.

The things I've read about the stars have been on other forums. I originaly bought our brittle star for stirring the bed, but I have yet to see it move from under its hidding spot.

About the crosshatch again, I paid $174 for our first one. I have been trying to get two diffrent shops to get one for me. Both these shops keep their prices on the lower side, which is why I asked them. There is another shop that told me they can get one easily, but the last one I saw in their shop was going for $330, which was more than I was willing to go.They are known for high prices, but a large selection. I also looked on line but could not find them.
Thanks again. Harpo

[ShirleyM]

Harpo,
Our green brittle star ate fish food, shrimp, and such, but didn't stir the sand.
Shirley

[Ichthus]

so if sand sifting stars could deplete the bed...what about gobies who are constantly sifting the sand bed? Are they bad too? SOrry to mooch off your thread Jerham, but it's kinda similar.

[wildthings44]

Just a side note, I heard greens eat fish...
I kept a horseshoe crab for a while, he was cool, my husband called him darth vader, cause of his helmet. I didn't have a really deep sand bed until I moved last september and added another 3 inches to the original 2" I now see alot of stuff in the sand, creepy crawlies and stuff like that.
Just to ask, someone told me last night that he read that dsb are not that great, that there are lots of problems with them... ever since I added the extra sand and made my bed deeper I have seen more stuff in the sand and my sand has never been whiter! I was alway fighting algae and cynobacteria blooms on the sand, and it looked awful! Now it's sparkeling white, no sifters, and my crab dissapeared shortly after the move. The only thing cleaning it is a 3" conch (sold as a queen, but I don't think it is) It does a really good job keeping the lower portions of the glass clean as well.
I have read nothing good on sifters... but I haven't come across all that much info. But then people were really agenst bristle worms too for a long time, and now alot of us really like them (well I do anyway) They are a cheeper clean up crew then the cukes, crabs, and snails... and they don't die.

[ShirleyM]

Originally posted by wildthings44
Just a side note, I heard greens eat fish...

Our green brittle star grew so large (HUGE) that we gave him to a reefer who could accommodate him in a non-small fish environment. Yes, he caught and ate our smaller fish - little gobies and such. We hated to lose him, but he hovered like a tarantula, then squatted on the sleeping fish. Yes, we fed him well with fresh shrimp.

Same Question as Ichthus, what about sand-sifting gobies? I'd like to add one; but thought they might eat all the life.

Wildthings44, there's a great thread archived on DSB vs. Plenums that you might enjoy reading...it was the discussion of the week recently. It's at:
http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/sh...threadid=13272

Thanks,
Shirley

[balakoth]

Just my 2 cents here.

Sand sifting starfish FEED on the infauna that regularly turn and breakdown the detrius in your bed. I do not believe pod growth is fast enough to survive the consistant feeding of a starfish. It is how they survive and will eat until there is no longer an established food source no?

LIttle bugs and such "hiding" under the rocks doesnt seem it would prove much help in a small closed system, even though they can hide, they must come back out and therefore be preyed upon.

Im sure a SSS would be fine if you would enjoy re=replenishing your bed with the natural infuana with Det Kits on a continual basis.


In short (haha to late ) The infuana work to make the Deep Sand Bed work. If you allow, Starfish, Gobies, Horseshoe crabs to continually prey on them. How can they population stay at an acceptable level to provide the nessecities found in nature; In your small tank.


I am no expert and far from it, but my logic seems to put this wide open. We want Bugs, Eating Bugs is bad, stay away from bug eating baddies??



Joe

[Ichthus]

so what about vacuuming the CC bed? Is that ok? Just lightly then if SSS etc are bad?

[aquaticsdeptleader]

sand sifting gobies are reputed to be less then happy captive animals?

the 3 reasons i have heard for not keeping horseshoe crabs

1. they get about a foot long
2. bulldozer
3. hard to tell if they die a roting 1' beast makes a mess